The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Good afternoon and welcome to today's Plenary meeting. The first item today is questions to the First Minister. Question 1, Mike Hedges.

River Pollution

Mike Hedges AC: 1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to reduce river pollution? OQ59418

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Mike Hedges, Dirprwy Lywydd, for that question. With ministerial colleagues, I have chaired two summits, bringing together all those bodies and organisations with a responsibility to reduce river pollution. The agreed action plan commits all participants to accelerate the practical measures that each can take to tackle pollution in our waterways

Mike Hedges AC: I thank the First Minister for that response. River pollution is a problem across Wales, but I only want to talk about the River Tawe. We have raw sewerage discharge, agricultural pollution and microplastics. Some suggestions: has the Welsh Government considered taking action to stop water run-off mixing with sewerage? Things I belive that could help include the planting of trees and bushes, making it a planning condition on new developments that impervious coverings are not allowed, except for a driveway with limited width, to have greater control over the use of fertiliser on farmland, and to completely ban microplastic use in commonly used materials such as cosmetics.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I thank Mike Hedges for his unfailingly constructive suggestions as to how we might tackle the scourge of river pollution. A number of the points that he has mentioned I think we have embarked upon already. As far as separating water run-off from sewerage, then the future of sustainable drainage systems, I think, is fundamental to making sure that, for all new building developments, we can relieve pressure on the network, redirecting and slowing down the speed at which surface water enters the sewer system.
The Member made a number of points about agricultural pollution. Of course, we are committed to making sure that we have greater use control over fertilisers on farmland, and the sustainable farming scheme will contribute to a number of other points that Mike Hedges made. It will offer support to those farmers who choose to take it, to tree plant, particularly along river banks, but also more generally. And as for the point that the Member makes about making the planning condition on new developments, the Minister for Climate Change has undertaken to write to all local authorities, reminding them of the enforcement powers they already have in this regard. There are restrictions on paving over front gardens, for parking or any other purpose, without planning permission. And Mike Hedges is quite right to point to the fact that the way in which, increasingly in urban areas, people have turned what were previously gardens into hard standing and parking, means that there is increased run-off into sewers, adding to the risk of flooding and impacting on water quality. So, I hope the Member can see from that that a range of the suggestions that he has made are being taken forward already, and there are other ideas that he has suggested this afternoon that we will be able to explore and see if they can add to that overall cross-Government effort.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: It's clear, at the moment, that you're getting your action plan together. It is fair to say the UK Conservative Government now has a clear plan for reducing river pollution. By 2035—yes, they're well ahead of the game—water companies will have to improve all storm overflows discharging into or near every designated bathing water, and they will have to improve 75 per cent of overflows discharged into high-priority nature sites. By 2050, this will apply to all remaining storm overflows covered by our targets regardless of location. Wales has six out of the 20 most polluted rivers in the UK, and I am sure that you will agree that 600,000 hours of dumping into our waterways and our Welsh rivers is completely unacceptable.So, First Minister, would you agree with me and back the stance of the UK Conservative Government—the stance they've taken to address this issue—by holding water companies to account, and, if so, when are you going to do the same here in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I don't think this is an area in which there is competition between the different nations of the United Kingdom. I believe that we need to reduce river pollution in Wales, and I'm quite sure that the UK Government takes action in England to do the same thing. It is a shared ambition, particularly with rivers that cross the border, where only combined action can have the impact that we wish. Many of the things that the Member has mentioned are happening in Wales. By 2030, Dŵr Cymru will have reduced their phosphorous pollution loading on our key areas by 90 per cent, and will have reduced it by 100 per cent by 2035. Of course, there is a great deal more that needs to be done. I agree with what the Member said that sewage dumping into rivers is not an acceptable practice, and that the industry has to invest more, and more quickly, to make sure that it tackles that. I believe that, in Dŵr Cymru, we have a company in Wales, a not-for-profit company, that is able to invest in the Welsh infrastructure without profit taking elsewhere. I think we're fortunate to have a company structured in that way and, I think, with a genuine commitment to playing its part in reducing river pollution.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, First Minister. I live in Hay-on-Wye. The River Wye is the second most polluted river in Wales, after the River Usk, and the River Tawe is the third most polluted river in Wales. Many of us get our postbags filled with people writing to us about the state of our rivers. And I realise it's not a political point, but I am really disappointed that, once again, Conservative MPs voted against taking a tougher stance against sewage dumping by our water companies, something that would have helped us across the UK. I also would take issue in Wales here on Dŵr Cymru. Dŵr Cymru executives get paid quite a lot of money—I think £600,000 was the last payment to a chief executive of Dŵr Cymru. This is at a time when Wales's water bills are the second highest across the country. May I ask you, in terms of river sewage, First Minister, whether you would support measures to make sewage dumping illegal?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, of course the Member is right in her simple factual point about the way Conservative MPs voted on this issue. If sewage dumping were to be made illegal, then the question would arise as to what happens when storm overflows inevitably cause pressure on the system. And while I'm completely with the Member in wanting to see all of that addressed seriously and quickly, it is simply the fact that combined sewage overflows operate in a way that means that sewage doesn't come through the floors of private businesses and private homes. So, if you banned it tomorrow, you would simply displace the problem and make the problem, I think, even less acceptable to Welsh citizens. The truth of the matter is, Dirprwy Lywydd, that this is a complex issue, where you can only make a difference by gathering together all the different contributions from those who have a part to play. That's why our action plan has buy-in from the Welsh Government, of course, but the regulators, the developers, the farming unions, the water companies, and we will need to see it from communities themselves. In the case of the River Wye, 72 per cent of pollution in the River Wye comes from agricultural sources. So, while I agree that Dŵr Cymru must play its part, and do it effectively, unless you're prepared to tackle the other sources of river pollution, then you won't make the difference that Jane Dodds and I would like to see.

Train Services

Siân Gwenllian AC: 2. Will the First Minister make a statement on train services that run from Bangor along the north Wales coast railway? OQ59456

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Siân Gwenllian. Dirprwy Lywydd, many of the mainline services across north Wales are a UK Government responsibility, and they are delivered by Avanti West Coast. Poor performance and inadequate service levels on this essential route has placed additional pressure on regional services run by Transport for Wales and delivered an unacceptable experience for passengers across north Wales.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much. And I agree with that analysis. But, in Bangor, we have one of the busiest stations in the north of Wales, and there are plans afoot to improve the facilities there. But the most far-reaching improvement that could happen for the benefit of rail users in Arfon and beyond is electrification of the north Wales coast line. Some of the funding that is due to Wales as a result of HS2 in England would be able to be used for that electrification. But, as well as investment, we need to have the powers over rail infrastructure and bring those powers here to the Senedd. Will you make the strong case for the devolution of rail infrastructure to the Government, and make that case robustly to the UK Government, and to your own party, indeed?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Siân Gwenllian for those supplementaries, Dirprwy Lywydd. And I do agree that we need the full powers over railways, as well as the investment to go along with those powers. We have some powers already, and we have used those powers, as people can see, in the investment into rail lines in the Valleys and in Cardiff. If we could have full powers, then we could do a more comprehensive job of work in order to make things better here in Wales. But, to do that, the powers without the investment simply couldn't work, and that's why Siân Gwenllian's points are important for us here in Wales.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Bangor station is already an important hub for university students and, now, with Welsh Government investing in a medical school, a dental academy and the National Slate Museum in its programme for government, Bangor station has significantly grown in importance. Do you share my disappointment to see that there will be just five services a day now between north Wales and London from May 2023, with no plans from the UK Government to restore the pre-COVID level of service? By awarding a six-month contract to Avanti, they are delaying a much needed reconsideration of the service provided, and such a short-term offer will not incentivise Avanti to improve the service or resolve any other outstanding issues. So, I am just concerned that this is another kick in the teeth for the people of north Wales and for trying to grow the economy there, and to get people to Bangor.

Mark Drakeford AC: Dirpwy Lywydd, I thank Carolyn Thomas for that. She makes a very important point. The decision of Avanti West Coast to reduce services between north Wales and London was made without any prior notification to the Welsh Government or to Transport for Wales, despite the very obvious knock-on effect onto those local train services. Not only did it arbitrarily reduce those services, but, clearly, that was good enough for the UK Government, because, despite that, they've gone ahead and awarded a six-month contract extension to Avanti West Coast. Now, I am told that Avanti is committed to improving that service. I am glad to see that the new chief executive of Avanti West Coast has offered a meeting with our transport Minister to set out the actions they are taking, but the truth of the matter is, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the problems on the railway are more basic than any single franchise. The way in which rail services are designed and delivered across the United Kingdom simply does not meet the needs of the travelling public. In order to have a more fundamental review, you need what Siân Gwenllian said in her original question—you need the powers transferred to Wales and the investment to go alongside it, and then, in the way that we have taken those parts of the railway that are under our control back under public control, we will be able to do that and make a much better job of rail services in Wales.

Sam Rowlands MS: My colleague Siân Gwenllian is absolutely right to raise concerns again about the train services in north Wales. And I must say, First Minister, you have a refreshingly honest Deputy Minister for transport who clearly has concerns about the state of the Labour-run rail service here in Wales as well. He was recently quoted as saying that Transport for Wales could be 'awful' and has been 'pretty bleak for a while'. Do you agree with him, First Minister?

Mark Drakeford AC: What I agree was the point that the Minister was actually making, because he was pointing to the decision of the UK Government to set out a future for rail services in Wales that can only be one of managed decline. That is the policy of your party and the Government that you support. That is why they have agreed the next period of investment for Network Rail that has Wales at the very foot of the league table. Every other region but one has better investment over the next period than is going to be offered in Wales, despite the fact that investment in the Welsh rail service has been dismal over the whole 13 years in which your Government has been in charge. That was the point the Deputy Minister was making, and it’s one I think any person who takes an objective look at the facts of rail investment in Wales would endorse.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

We move on now to questions from party leaders, and, first of all, the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Last week, First Minister, the COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru issued a damning statement, in fairness, assessing the engagement so far the Welsh Government has had with the UK-wide COVID inquiry. Now, from these benches, we have time and time again said that there should be a Wales-wide independent inquiry; regrettably, the Labour benches have voted that proposal down, so we do rely on, obviously, the Welsh Government engaging with the UK inquiry to make sure that all the facts are presented and can be understood by that inquiry. Can you give us an update on how the Welsh Government is engaging with the COVID inquiry at a UK level? And are you as concerned as I am with the judgment that the COVID bereaved families have around non-disclosure and the timeliness of the evidence that the Welsh Government is submitting to the inquiry?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Welsh Government engages fully with the UK inquiry. We are in receipt of numerous rule 9 requests to Ministers and to senior officials, and those multiple rule 9 requests are being complied with. The counsel to the inquiry said at the hearing that the Welsh Government had complied with all of those requests. They had asked for some further exhibits, as they are called—supporting documents—to go alongside the statements that had been submitted on time. Those further documents have now been submitted. It is part of thousands and thousands of documents that the Welsh Government has now provided to the inquiry.
On the point that the bereaved families made about non-disclosure of witness statements to them, that is absolutely not a matter for the Welsh Government at all. Once the statements are in the hands of the inquiry, it is a decision for the independent inquiry to make as to when those statements are submitted to other core participants. The Welsh Government has no say in that at all, nor should we. So, the bereaved families may have a concern about it, but it is not a concern that can be laid at the door of the Welsh Government.

Andrew RT Davies AC: So, for clarity, First Minister, the documentation that has been requested from the inquiry and the paperwork and other evidence that is required has been submitted on time, and actually the blame for non-disclosure is with the inquiry rather than the Welsh Government—or are there genuine examples where all the information has not been sent over from the Welsh Government and this has caused, obviously, the inquiry not to release the information because they’re only in possession of partial information? Because it is an important point to understand as to exactly why this information isn’t coming forward to the COVID bereaved families, who have core participation status in the inquiry, and the module 1 is due to start only in seven weeks’ time. They need that evidence to obviously be able to be in a position to present their case.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, first of all, I cannot possibly sign up to the idea that the inquiry is to blame. There's no blame here; this is a decision of the inquiry. The leader of the opposition said that the inquiry was to blame—that’s the term he used; I listened to him very carefully—for non-disclosure of documents. It’s not for him or for me to blame the inquiry. The inquiry’s independent; it makes its decisions on when documents are released to all core participants. I don’t believe—I haven't checked today—I don't believe the Welsh Government has seen the statements of other core participants yet, and we will be giving evidence. The former Minister of health and I are both called as oral witnesses to the inquiry on module 1, and we haven't seen anybody else's statement yet either. That's a decision for the inquiry to make.
As far as the provision of information is concerned, I think the best I can do is just to read into the record what the counsel to the inquiry said at that module 1 hearing.
'The position in relation to the Welsh Government',
the KC said,
'was that in its draft response, although the response was full and complete, that there was an absence of supporting exhibits'.
He then says that he asked for those supporting exhibits, and, he says,
'we've received the material.'
Then he says at the end of the lengthy submission he was making—. 'So', he says to the chair of the inquiry,
'there is no, now, real issue in relation to the provision of material by material providers.'
So, just to simplify it, Dirprwy Lywydd: we provided what we were asked for in time. The inquiry, quite rightly, interrogates that material and sees whether there's anything else that it needs. It asked us for further supporting documentation. That has been supplied. And we will continue to co-operate with the inquiry, in full, at every stage.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, First Minister, for that answer. I genuinely am not trying to trip you up, and I'm grateful for the one sentence that you put in that response, which is that what was required of you was presented in time. I think that that will be very helpful for especially the COVID bereaved families, but others, to understand that that information, in your words, was presented on time.
What I'd also like to try and explore with you in my final question is another issue that the COVID bereaved families highlighted as being an issue: the expert witnesses that might be called upon from the inquiry to reflect on actions taken here in Wales. As I think we all understand, expert witnesses are a very important part of any inquiry's evidence-gathering and understanding of the situation.
Are you confident that the expert witnesses that you understand that the inquiry will be dealing with or calling upon have the sufficient expertise to understand the policy, legislative and decision-making frameworks that exist here in Wales to be able to inform the inquiry in a meaningful way, so that they can reach conclusions that benefit the decision-making processes here in Wales, should another situation like this appear on our horizons?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I want to be careful in what I say, because I am a witness to the inquiry. What I did was to negotiate with the UK Government of the time to make sure that the inquiry had all the powers it needs to be able to secure evidence from whatever witnesses it thinks it needs in order to be able to explore the way decisions were made here in Wales. It cannot be for me, as a witness to the inquiry, to then try to influence the inquiry in who it calls to give other evidence. So, I'm just trying to be very careful that I observe the proper proprieties here.
What I am confident of is that, in the discussions that I held with the then Prime Minister, the terms of reference and the working practices of the inquiry are drawn up in a way that offers that independent inquiry—that it must decide who it wants to hear from. It has all the powers at its disposal in order to be able to do the important work—and I agree with the points that the leader of the opposition made: it is important that the inquiry is able to do that. It has the power that it needs, and we must allow it to exercise those responsibilities in that entirely independent way.

The Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Just picking up on that last point, First Minister, if I may—. I accept that this is an evolving picture; it's a live inquiry. But, when I asked Baroness Hallett specifically about expert witnesses just over a month ago, I got a list of the expert witnesses that were appointed by that date. And there were—. Based on the area of instruction that I was given, none of them had any particular specific expertise in relation to Wales. Doesn't, at least, the First Minister—? I understand the point that you've just made that it's not your role as a witness to the inquiry to then tell the inquiry what expertise they need to avail themselves of. But isn't it a legitimate area of concern that, certainly as of 23 March, there were no expert witnesses appointed at that point, with only a few months to go to the beginning of module 1, with expertise in relation to Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the assessment as to whether or not the witnesses that the inquiry have called so far have expertise is a matter of judgment, and the judgment that Adam Price makes is a judgment for him to make. He was right to put his points directly to the chair of the inquiry. Those are for her to resolve, and not for me. Do I believe that the committee should have available to it all the independent expertise that it requires? Of course I do. That is why I had those discussions with the UK Government at the time that the inquiry was being established. I believe it has the powers it needs in order to do that. If anybody believes, who is not themselves a core participant in the inquiry, that there are further sources of expertise that could help the inquiry in its work, of course those points can be made directly to the chair of the inquiry. I agree with what Adam Price said in opening, that this is an evolving position. The inquiry will, undoubtedly, look for further evidence and further expertise, and, if anybody believes that more could be done, that point should be made directly to the inquiry itself.

Adam Price AC: The core participants, I believe, have advance access to the expert witness reports. Maybe the First Minister could correct me if I'm wrong in that, but the COVID bereaved families Cymru group have seen those expert reports that have been prepared so far, and they said in the preliminary hearing—their representative said—that:
'What is clear from all these reports is that the devolved administrations, including Wales, receive insufficient analysis and in some instances virtually no analysis.'
So, it's not just my judgment, it is the judgment of others that have seen the reports that have been produced so far. Based on the fact that, actually, there is no specific expertise, in the information that's been shared with me by the inquiry, that relates to Wales, this is hardly surprising.
So, could I ask the First Minister as well—? I was told by the inquiry that Cardiff and Vale University Health Board and the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru did apply for core participant status, but they were refused that across all modules. Do you think that is a surprising decision given the necessity of having core participants from Wales, like the COVID families, that are able to do things like interrogate the level of expertise that relates to Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, all core participants to the inquiry have responsibilities that come with being a core participant, and they have rights that come with that as well. That does give core participants rights to see documentation. I don't think it is sensible at all, Llywydd, to try to second-guess the inquiry before it has heard directly from a single witness. The purpose of the inquiry is to come to the conclusions on the matters that the leader of Plaid Cymru has raised this afternoon, and it is in the foothills of that work. Of course, individual contributors to the inquiry will have views. That's why they are core participants. But to quote the views of a single organisation as though that was the end of the matter, when, in fact, what the inquiry is there to do is to take those views, weigh them up against other people's views and itself come to the conclusion—that's why it's been established, that's why it works in the way that it does.
This afternoon, to try to say that something is clear because one participant in an inquiry has a view about it, I think just doesn't understand the way that this is to be conducted. It's not for me—it's not for me, Llywydd—to take a view either on who the inquiry chooses to hear from. It will have weighed up the different applications it has. If anybody believes it's made the wrong judgment, then the person to talk to is the chair of the inquiry, not the First Minister of Wales.

Adam Price AC: Well, I think it is certainly a reasonable conclusion to come to that the exclusion, so far, of any expert witnesses with particular expertise in Wales, and the exclusion of two important organisations from core participant status, is evidence in favour of the proposition that many of us here and outside this Chamber have represented: that there will be insufficient focus on Wales in this inquiry.
Could I turn to another matter, First Minister? Unite has called on the Welsh Government to convene an emergency summit on the future of bus routes in Wales, which they claim—echoing concerns that we have expressed on these benches—are facing decimation without urgent action on funding. I've heard possibilities that another route may be found to solve this crisis; the important thing is to find the solution. So, can the First Minister illuminate us on that, if possible, and will you heed the call of Unite, and gather all necessary stakeholders to find a way forward that avoids the cataclysmic crisis in terms of the future of bus services that we would want to see avoided at all cost?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, that is exactly what the Minister responsible is doing. The Welsh Government talks to the bus providers, to the local authorities, to the unions involved, in exactly that way, looking for any ideas that we can bring together to sustain a bus network here in Wales. But as I explained last week in an answer to a question from Siân Gwenllian, some fundamental facts on the ground have altered. Patronage of the bus network inWales has not recovered to pre-pandemic levels. Therefore, the income coming into the industry from passengers is not what it was when the current network was being developed. There was emergency funding provided to the Welsh Government while the pandemic was in its crisis phase; that emergency funding is no longer available. We are making money through the Welsh Government's own budget available, so that there is time for the industry and its partners to plan a future that will have to reflect the patronage of the service in Wales. You could not go about this in any other way, and that is a difficult business, with some challenging decisions that the industry, local authorities and others are currently engaged in navigating, and engaged in navigating through the convening power of the Welsh Government.

Council Houses

Jack Sargeant AC: 3. What is the Welsh Government doing to increase the number of council houses in Wales? OQ59452

Mark Drakeford AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, we are committed to supporting local authorities in delivering their housing ambitions. Since 2021, local authorities have been able to access social housing grant, tripling the level of support for Flintshire council, for example, in their ambitious plans to increase council house building for local residents.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful to the First Minister for his answer. People need secure housing and that is exactly what council housing is. If we look over the border in England, they continue to sell off more social housing than is being built, putting people in incredibly precarious positions. I know, Llywydd, interested Members will have read the recent article I wrote for Nation.Cymru about the trauma that results from being evicted: people's lives being turned upside down as they are moved away from their schools, their families, GPs, and those wider support networks that we are all familiar with.
First Minister, it was 20 years ago yesterday when Dad was first elected to the then National Assembly for Wales, and I know you worked extremely closely with him as Welsh Government Ministers to set and deliver ambitious targets for social housing house building, and I would ask you today to commit again to setting such targets, but going further and looking at the future development of a more trauma-informed approach when it comes to housing policy in Wales.

Mark Drakeford AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, I thank Jack Sargeant for those important points. He is right to point in this instance to what goes on across the border, where the Government's own most recent figures show that one house is being built for every two that are still being sold through right to buy.
Now, when Carl Sargeant became the Minister responsible for housing in Wales in 2016, I was the finance Minister, and Jack Sargeant is absolutely right: one of my very first conversations as finance Minister—I occupied the office directly next door to Carl—was when he came through the door to tell me that he needed an awful lot of money in order to meet the Welsh Government's ambitious targets for 20,000 affordable homes built in that 2016 term. Of course, in the end, partly as a result of those discussions, we exceeded that target and built 23,000 affordable homes in that Senedd term. But as well as taking responsibility for the house building programme, the social house building programme, Carl Sargeant was also responsible for taking the legislation through the Senedd that abolished the right to buy here in Wales. I read recently the statement that Rebecca Evans made when she actually brought the Bill to its very final stages here. She said in her statement, Dirprwy Lywydd:
'I'd also like to say how pleased Carl Sargeant would have been to see the Bill reach the final stage. He believed passionately in protecting our social housing stock for those who need it most,'
and that's exactly what that decision meant. Here in Wales, from the figures that we have available, between 2008 and 2011 local authorities in Wales built 128 homes. In the three years for which the most recent figures are available, 2019 to 2020, local authorities built 1,376 houses—over 1,000 more than at the start of the period to which Jack Sargeant has referred. And there is more to come, Dirprwy Lywydd, as here in Wales we make sure that our focus is on building homes for those who are most in need. Eighty-two per cent of new affordable housing in Wales in the last year was social housing. In England, that figure was 13 per cent. That just sums up the contrast between our focus on those most in need and what goes on across our border.

Mark Isherwood AC: I was also elected here for the first time 20 years ago, and I remember drinking a sociable drink with your father when we both arrived. [Laughter.]
But successive independent reports have shown that Wales needs 12,000 or more new homes annually if we're to break the housing crisis, which did not exist in 1999. StatsWales's figures show that the number of new social homes delivered in Wales during the first 12 years of devolved Labour Government was down 73 per cent on the number of new social homes delivered in Wales during the 12 years of UK Conservative Government up to 1997. The 2012 housing review said it was the Welsh Government itself that gave housing a lower priority in its overall budgets, so that by 2010 it had by far the lowest proportional level of housing expenditure of any of the four UK countries. Even last year, only 5,065 new homes of all tenures were registered in Wales. The UK Conservative-led Government after 2010 allowed local authorities to exit the housing revenue account system and invest in new council housing. In 2018, the UK Conservative Government announced that the local authority housing revenue account borrowing cap could be lifted. That's why there are more council houses now. But how will you ensure that Welsh local authorities work with housing associations to maximise the number of new social homes this can now deliver?

Mark Drakeford AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, the world moves on, and some of the points that Mark Isherwood made—. I congratulate him, by the way, on his 20 years here in the Senedd. In the figures for the last available year, 2021-22, Wales spent 2.8 per cent of our Government expenditure on housing, and the figure in England had fallen to 1.6 per cent. So, Wales is certainly not at the bottom of that expenditure league. We wanted to see more houses built in Wales by local authorities and by housing associations for those who need an affordable home to rent.
Last week, the leader of Plaid Cymru and I were in Haverfordwest together, looking at some of the housing initiatives that have been taken as a result of the co-operation agreement. We went to see an estate where the local authority, using money from the Welsh Government, has been able to secure nearly 50 houses that were previously used by the Ministry of Defence, but were being rented in the private rented sector. Now they will be social homes. We spoke to one of the very first people to be offered a tenancy in one of those homes, and he was far more eloquent than I can be about the difference it made having the local authority as his landlord, both because the rent was lower, at a social rent, but the security that it gave him and his family. It's more of that sort of development that we want to see here in Wales.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you to Jack for the question. Of course, one way we could develop cheaper, affordable housing at scale is to use modular homes. Now, I know that you've been in partnership with Grŵp Cynefin some years ago to develop modular housing. So, what lessons have you learned from that pilot and any other pilots that may have been had here in Wales on the development of modular housing? And can we look forward to seeing more homes of this kind being built in the future?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Mabon ap Gwynfor, and I have read about the pilot that we have to use, as it says in English, modern methods of construction. That includes modular homes, but a number of other things as well. There's a great deal of interest in this field in Wales from abroad, for example, including companies from Japan who have been over in Wales to see how they can help us to use these novel methods to construct homes for people, not just in rural areas, of course, but across all of Wales. Modular homes are part of the plans that we have, but more than that, they're part of the ambition that we have to use these various novel methods to derive more homes from the investments that we have made in housing and the investments that we will make throughout this Senedd term.

The Future of Cardiff Airport

Natasha Asghar AS: 4. Will the First Minister make a statement on the future of Cardiff Airport? OQ59425

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that, Dirprwy Llywydd. We remain committed to supporting the airport to recover from the impact of the pandemic and become a self-sustaining vital piece of Wales's national infrastructure. Recent announcements of more services and flights demonstrate that Welsh passengers have increasing opportunities to fly from closer to home.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thanks, First Minister. First Minister, it's no secret that I firmly believe that Cardiff Airport has been a huge waste of money, with more than £200 million of taxpayers' cash pumped into it over the years. In my eyes, the best place for it is indeed in the private sector where it might actually stand some chance of success. Nearly £43 million has been given to the airport from the Welsh Government as part of the rescue and recovery package to help it become more profitable in future. The airport is yet to reach a level of annual profitability. With Wizz Air's recent withdrawal of services, we have been told that the airport's pathway to profit could be longer than indeed expected and anticipated. First Minister, this is a failing airport. At what point does one stop throwing good money after bad and call time of death on this particular Welsh Government vanity project?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the Conservative Party in Wales have always been the enemy of the airport. They have been ever since it was taken into public ownership, rescued from the private sector. Rescued from the private sector, where the airport was in terminal decline. Since then, and up to the onset of the pandemic, the airport was recovering that position rapidly. And far from being a failing airport, what have we seen in recent weeks? We have seen a new daily flight open between Cardiff and Orly airport in Paris, we have seen 40,000 more holiday places going from Cardiffas a result of TUI's investment, and we see a new route between Cardiff and Belfast daily as a result of Ryanair's confidence in the airport. Airport operators have confidence in Cardiff; what a shame the Welsh Conservative Party can't be part of that, rather than constantly talking the airport down.

Alun Davies AC: I was delighted, First Minister, to use Cardiff Airport last week when coming back from Dublin, as I used Cardiff Airport last month to attend meetings in Brussels. Do you agree with me that it is the role of governments to invest in our infrastructure? I was very taken by the work of Ben Houchen, the Conservative mayor in Tees Valley, who has invested in operational expenditure in Teesside airport, who has invested in the capital of Teesside airport, who has extended a loan facility to Teesside airport, and who has provided additional pandemic support for Teesside airport. 'A good Conservative policy' he called it. I have to say, I didn't spend much time watching the Conservative conference over the weekend—[Interruption.] Presiding Officer, they haven't won in Wales since 1859, so I didn't see the point. But what I was taken by was the transport Minister from the UK, Richard Holden, who congratulated Ben Houchen on his investment in Teesside airport—a good policy, supporting local facilities, rather than being driven by a questioning ideology. And for the record, Teesside airport has 173,000 passengers and receives all that Conservative support, and Cardiff Airport has over 900,000 passengers every year and has no support from the Conservative Party at all.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Alun Davies for that. I heard Members from the Conservative benches shouting as he spoke; I understand they're not used to addressing audiences as large as this Chamber, but there's probably no need to shout.
I don't think I can do any better than to quote the Conservative mayor Ben Houchen himself. He said:
'You can't just run away from an airport and turn your back on the staff who have worked their socks off to keep the airport flying over the years'.
We agree with him. In other places, where more sensible voices are to be heard, people understand that a regional airport is an essential part of the transport infrastructure. It's certainly important for Wales as a nation to have Cardiff Airport. We will go on investing, we will go on supporting. It would be useful, I think, for colleagues on the Conservative benches here to speak to their colleague in Teesside.

Question 5 [OQ59455] has been withdrawn, so question 6, James Evans.

Bute Energy Pylons

James Evans MS: 6. Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's position on Bute Energy's proposals for pylons in mid Wales? OQ59435

Mark Drakeford AC: The Welsh Government's position on the Bute Energy proposals is that they are likely to be a development of national significance. Welsh Ministers are the decision makers on such developments and, as a result, I am unable to comment on the specifics of this proposal.

James Evans MS: I'd like to thank the First Minister for his answer. Since Bute Energy and Green GEN Cymru's proposals to erect 60 miles of pylons across my constituency, I've been inundated with e-mails from constituents who are very concerned about the scheme. As you said, this application, when it comes forward, will be via the DNS process, but many of my residents are concerned, as Welsh Government Ministers have previously overruled local planning committees and the planning inspector to grant applications against planning advice, such as Hendy windfarm, because they said that delivering renewable energy was a material consideration, and the Minister didn't agree with what the planning inspector said. First Minister, how can my residents be assured that the Welsh Labour Government will listen to communities and follow planning advice when determining a development of national significance?

Mark Drakeford AC: Any decisions that any Welsh Government Minister makes in such a context are challengeable through the courts. We are always open to judicial review if we do not act in accordance with the established procedures. That certainly means that we take into account the views of people who are affected by planning decisions. That is the confidence that people locally can have. We operate by open, available, challengeable decisions, and we do so always in a way that makes us confident that we are abiding by all the requirements of the law.

Food Insecurity

Luke Fletcher AS: 7. What action is the Welsh Government taking to tackle food insecurity in South Wales West? OQ59457

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that. Food insecurity in Wales is addressed through investment in the food manufacturing industry, supporting agriculture and providing significant support to a wide variety of community projects.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for that response, First Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: I'll declare an interest, Dirprwy Lywydd, as member of Baobab Bach, a network of community food pantries in Bridgend. The current situation is hand to mouth for community pantries in my region and surplus food shortages are acute. One community pantry that does transformational work in my region is Baobab Bach, and I was grateful for the Minister for social justice's visit down to the community pantry in Pencoed. They've reported a reduction of anywhere between 50 per cent and 90 per cent to their normal supply from FareShare across all their pantries. Meanwhile, the demand is 40 per cent higher than this time last year. FareShare haven't been able to give them an update or tell them for how long the situation will persist, meaning that Baobab Bach and other community pantries are unable to plan ahead and are now using contingency and unrestricted funds to supplement the shortfall. What further support is available from the Welsh Government for community pantries when it comes to procuring food? Because they are all struggling to provide affordable food at this moment in time.

Mark Drakeford AC: The account that Luke Fletcher has offered us is repeated in many parts of Wales, where a combination of rapidly rising demand and the impact on household budgets of inflation means that donations into foodbanks and other forms of community initiatives are much harder to sustain. I know the Minister was very glad to make that visit, with the local Member, Huw Irranca-Davies, as well, to hear first-hand from people as to how they are doing everything they can to make up that shortfall. The Welsh Government has invested nearly £19 million in community food organisations since 2019. Last year alone, that figure was nearly £6 million, of which £0.5 million was directly for food purchases, so that those organisations seeking to provide help to people that are unable to meet that demand through donations or food pantry arrangements using good-quality surplus food could supplement that with money directly from the Welsh Government. We continue to review that situation all the time. It is a very, very difficult position for many families in our communities, and the systems set up to try to assist them are undoubtedly struggling under that combination of increasing demand and reducing availability of help from private individuals who are themselves under pressure because of the current cost-of-living crisis.

Question 8, Sarah Murphy.

Sarah Murphy AS: Diolch. First Minister—. I'm so sorry, I've got—.

You need to read the question on the paper.

Sarah Murphy AS: Yes, sorry. As many in this Chamber have already seen, the cost-of-living crisis—

No, no. The question is, 'How is the Welsh Government tackling the cost-of-living crisis for people in Bridgend?'

The Cost of Living

Sarah Murphy AS: 8. How is the Welsh Government tackling the cost-of-living crisis for people in Bridgend? OQ59420

Sarah Murphy AS: Thank you. I'm so sorry.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you. I've heard the question, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Welsh Government supports vulnerable households in Bridgend, and throughout Wales, to manage the cost-of-living crisis. We invest in programmes to alleviate financial hardship, maximise individual income and keep money in the pockets of Welsh citizens.

Sarah Murphy AS: Diolch, First Minister. As many in this Chamber will have already seen, the cost-of-living crisis has not gone away. Although the UK Government were confident that inflation would come down to single digits by this summer, we are still seeing inflation at 10.1 per cent, the highest in any G7 nation, according to the consumer price index. And worse yet, we see that food inflation is at its worst level since 1977, at 19.2 per cent. We've heard this morning how that's affecting people right at the grass-roots level in our communities. In real terms, this means a reported 1.3 million emergency food parcels and a drop of 3.2 per cent in money left over at the end of the month. This follows a 3.1 per cent decrease over the three months earlier, according to the Office for Budget Responsibility. Despite this, I am pleased to see that the Welsh Government is continuing to provide real support, whether that's the £600,000 of funding for the credit unions to support lending, extending Flying Start, which is incredible, or whether it’s increasing the education maintenance allowance from £30 to £40, which doesn’t sound like a lot, but really does make a difference—it’s going to support 700 people just in my constituency. So, First Minister, would you agree with me that it is only the Welsh Labour Government that can shield people who are struggling in my constituency and across Wales from the worsening crisis across our border? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Sarah Murphy for that. She’s right to point to the real impact that the cost-of-living crisis has on individuals and families in her constituency. Of course, the Welsh Government goes on doing everything we can. Let me just mention a few things that have an impact on families with children in particular, given that was a theme of what Sarah Murphy said. Our school essentials grant, available now in every school year, is benefiting nearly 100,000 children across the whole of Wales. The increase in the education maintenance allowance—one of the priorities we agreed with Plaid Cymru as part of the budget discussions—means that we will see a 33 per cent increase in the value of that grant, and Wales is the only part of the United Kingdom where help of that sort is available to our young people. The universal free school meals to which we are committed mean that Bridgend is already delivering universal free school meals to children in reception classes and in years 1 and 2. In Bridgend alone that means over 3,400 pupils are newly eligible for that form of help. Literally millions more meals have been provided since Siân Gwenllian and I appeared before the serving hatch in Ysgol Bro Preseli back in September. All of those things, together with the things that we are doing in extending childcare, the most generous scheme of student support anywhere in the United Kingdom, and other things too, are part of the practical demonstration that we make here in Wales, and go on making. Only today the Minister for education has published new uniform guidance for schools—another practical measure to keep the cost for those families most at risk from the cost-of-living crisis as manageable as we are able to make them.

And finally, question 9, Ken Skates.

The Wrexham Gateway Project

Ken Skates AC: 9. Will the First Minister make a statement about progress on the Wrexham Gateway project? OQ59417

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Ken Skates for that. The Wrexham Gateway Partnership has stepped in to support the redevelopment of the Racecourse ground and the return of competitive international football to the north of Wales in the light of UK Government’s failure to do so. Work to design a new public transport interchange at Wrexham General station is also now under way.

Ken Skates AC: First Minister, that really is magnificent news. It’s a very special day for Wrexham today. There’ll be an open-top bus progressing through the city with the team on board, with the owners, Rob and Ryan, with, no doubt, representatives of the club across the board, and hopefully the supporters trust as well. They all deserve huge thanks for what they’re doing to the city. First Minister, can you outline what you believe the Wrexham Gateway project, funded by the Welsh Government, will do to the city and the football club in terms of the economic benefits and the benefit to the prestige of Wrexham itself?

Mark Drakeford AC: These are great days for Wrexham—of course, great days in football, but also everything that that has done to raise the profile of the city with its newly acquired city status. The Welsh Government goes on being absolutely committed to the Wrexham Gateway project. Twice it’s been turned down by the UK Government, and now Welsh authorities are stepping in to make sure that the redevelopment of the ground can be completed not simply to the standard that will be required for Wrexham’s return to the football league, but for international sport. Football, rugby union and rugby league have all been played internationally at the Wrexham ground, and we want to make sure that that is possible for Wrexham in the future.
But it’s not just the football ground itself—it’s everything that lies behind it. It’s all those years of dedication from volunteers and others who kept the club afloat during the difficult years and are now looking forward to what lies ahead—a story that, I’m sure,has many successful chapters to come. We will continue to work with all our partners in Wrexham to achieve our shared ambition for the redevelopment of that part of the city, and the message it sends out about the successful future that lies ahead for Wrexham itself.

I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

Item 2 today is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. There's just one change to this week's business, and that is to clarify the title of today's statement on higher education. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar AC: Trefnydd, can I call for a statement on the impact of the higher rate of land transaction tax on the housing market here in Wales? I've been contacted by an elderly couple in my constituency, who own their own home, but have been on a waiting list for an apartment in sheltered accommodation for over seven years. An apartment has now become available, but they're unable, unfortunately, to fund the £1,500 in the higher rate land transaction taxes that they now have to pay, because they haven't yet sold their existing property. Now, I do know, of course, that they can get that money back once their property is sold, but they need to get their hands on that cash beforehand. They're unable to get a loan at the moment because of their age. They've begged and borrowed money from friends and family, but they still, unfortunately, have a shortfall, and they now face the prospect of having to turn this opportunity of the property away, simply because they haven't sold their own property.
Now, I appreciate that the Welsh Government didn't want to capture people like this elderly couple in this particular way, and that it might be an unintended consequence of the tax. So, given that there has been this unintended consequence, I wonder whether it is something that the Welsh Government could consider bringing forward a statement on, just to see how we can get around these sorts of issues, because I suspect that, whilst this couple has been in touch, there must be others in a similar situation.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I don't think need there's any need for a further statement. At the back of my mind, I don't think it's too long since the Minister for Finance and Local Government did make a statement. My understanding is that your constituents—and perhaps you can inform them of this—they do have three years to sell it.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Over the weekend, there was another dog attack in Penyrheol, the third serious one in under 18 months. The two previous ones resulted in fatalities, claiming the lives of 10-year-old Jack Lis in the first incident, and 83-year-old Shirley Patrick in the second incident. The victim in this latest attack was a five-month-old baby, taken to hospital for non-life threatening injuries, and my thoughts and prayers, and, I'm sure, the thoughts and prayers of everybody here, go out to that family at this difficult time.
Only two days before this incident, Plaid Cymru councillor, Steve Skivens, hosted a meeting in Penyrheol to discuss the need to tackle the wave of serious dog attacks in the community. I attended the meeting, along with a number of other Plaid Cymru members, as well as representatives from organisations such as the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and council officers, as well as Gwent Police. During the meeting, it emerged from the police that there is an initiative that's taking place in the North Wales Police area to tackle dangerous dogs and irresponsible dog ownership, which is often the root cause of problems. This initiative has yet to be applied throughout Wales.
Can we therefore have a Government statement on how we can improve public safety and responsible dog ownership, with a pan-Wales approach that is applied consistently throughout our country, and, also, a statement on what legislative solutions can be available to us here in Wales to tackle this issue? Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Absolutely, this is a shocking incident, and our thoughts are with the family of the five-month-old baby. You referred to two previous incidents, and, clearly, there seems to be some sort of cluster, unfortunately, around the Caerphilly area. And it's not too long ago that I met with Hefin David and Wayne David, who are extremely concerned about this. And I thank you for raising this today. Obviously, it falls within my portfolio.
A lot of the legislation around dangerous dogs is UK Government legislation, and I've certainly had—well, I've tried to have—correspondence with the previous Home Secretary, and, also, with other UK Government Ministers about what we can do at a legislative level to try and improve that. A lot of it isn't fit for purpose—it's centuries old, literally—and I think it's really important that that is one thing that we can do.
On the point—. Well, you've just raised two other points I wanted to mention around responsible dog ownership. Obviously, that is a priority for me as the Minister. We've got our code of practice for the welfare of dogs. That outlines the obligations on owners, and the promotion, I think, of responsible dog ownership. You mentioned a pilot that the north Wales rural crime team have run. I spoke at the first wildlife and rural crime conference last Thursday, at Llanelwedd, and it's very good to see that two other police authorities in Wales have also now got their own rural crime teams, with just South Wales to go. And I think it is really important that they learn from each other around what we can do. I think it's really important that we keep under constant review what more we can do, because it's very important that, while there are lots of benefits to dog ownership, aren't there, clearly, if we have irresponsible dog ownership, that's where we see these types of incidents. So, it is something I keep under review, and I'd be very happy to make a statement, perhaps a bit more down the line, when we've got some further information.

Mike Hedges AC: I would like a Government statement on the Welsh Government animal welfare plan to introduce compulsory microchipping of owned cats, and when consultation will begin. The 2022 cats report, published by Cats Protection, states that approximately 160,000 owned cats in Wales are not microchipped. Cats are roaming animals, therefore microchipping owned cats is very important, to potentially reunite lost cats with their owners, or give cat owners closure if their cat has unfortunately passed away while out of their home.
I would also like a Government statement on leasehold, including support for converting private leasehold into co-operative ownership by those living there. Major freeholders and associated management agents have successfully introduced practices that are, in my opinion, unfair and exploit leaseholders. These include ground rent doubling every 10 years; insurance deals to give management agents large dividends; companies who make an excessive charge for basic maintenance; and non-transparent service charges.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, you heard me say in my earlier answer to Peredur Griffiths that we have been looking at responsible dog ownership and the code of practice for the welfare of dogs within the animal health and welfare plan. And the next stage now is to look at the compulsory microchipping of cats. The plan obviously is a five-year plan—we're now coming to the end of the second year—but I have asked officials to look at this as a matter of urgency, because I do think it's a natural progression, following on from the work we've done with the microchipping of dogs.
In relation to your second query, the Minister for Climate Change does have questions tomorrow, and it might be good to raise that with her tomorrow.

Mark Isherwood AC: I call for a statement from the health Minister, setting out what the Welsh Government is doing to improve treatment for people with asthma and lung conditions. Today is World Asthma Day, when we shine a light on the more than 314,000 people living with asthma here in Wales. In fact, after recovering from COVID-like symptoms during the first weeks of lockdown, when tests were unavailable, I was diagnosed as one of these. Today's launch of the Asthma and Lung UK Cymru report, 'Raising the Bar', in the Senedd, highlights the low levels of people receiving basic asthma care, the over-reliance that so many people have on reliever rather preventer medication, and the fact that two thirds of asthma deaths are preventable. I call for a statement accordingly.
I also call for a Welsh Government oral statement or debate on the delayed and late disclosure from Welsh Government in the UK COVID-19 inquiry. Now, I heard the First Minister responding to the leader of the opposition, and the leader of Plaid Cymru, earlier on this, but transparency and accountability demand full Senedd scrutiny. Following last Tuesday's third preliminary hearing for module 1 of the UK COVID-19 inquiry, COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru stated that delayed disclosure will limit their time to review and question the statements and evidence submitted on behalf of the Welsh Government, and that, despite assurance from the First Minister, Welsh Government failed to request Welsh expertise at the hearing. And in the transcript from last week's hearing, the barrister representing COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru stated that the Welsh Government's failure to prepare for the COVID-19 pandemic had catastrophic consequences, and that it is vitally important that the full extent of these failures are publicly exposed and identified so that all necessary lessons can be learnt, and that this must happen sooner rather than later. Yet, she said that, as at today's date, not a single witness statement has been disclosed from a Welsh-related witness of fact or from the Welsh Government.I call for a Welsh Government debate accordingly.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think it's very important that Mark Isherwood highlighted that today is indeed World Asthma Day. I am sure there are several people here in the Chamber, as you say, who suffer from asthma, as well as many, many of our constituents. I do think it's a very important day to recognise the challenges that people here in Wales and, indeed, right across the world, face in dealing with the impact of asthma.Welsh Government set out, back in November of last year, our approach to improving healthcare services in the quality statement for respiratory disease, and that will be supported by the establishment of a national respiratory disease clinical network. The Member will also be aware that we have the clean air plan for Wales and the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill coming forward, and that will support action to reduce the impact of air pollution on people's health, and especially respiratory conditions, such as asthma.
In relation to your second request, I think the First Minister perfectly explained the position of the Welsh Government, and I don't think there's any need for a further debate.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Trefnydd. Could I please request a statement from the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language on what steps Welsh Government is taking to improve the mental well-being of higher education students? Today, students at Aberystwyth University are holding an event in memory of Charlie McLeod, a computer science student who sadly became a victim to suicide in February. The students are calling for better well-being services, a clear definition for higher education institutions and their duty of care, and to make higher education institutions subject to serious incident reviews. I would welcome a statement from the Minister on those matters. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, certainly, I read the story in the press at the weekend, as many of us did, and found it very upsetting and distressing, particularly, I think, taking on board Charlie's mum's comments. I'm aware of the event taking place today in Aberystwyth University, and preventing suicide is absolutely a priority for Welsh Government. As you're aware, we have established an expert group to provide advice on how to improve access to mental health services, and we want to ensure that universities across Wales have consistent and accessible support for students.

Joyce Watson AC: Trefnydd, I'd welcome an opportunity to discuss the written statement that you issued last week on nutrient management. I understand why the Government has delayed the implementation of the 170 kg/ha nitrogen whole-farm limit again, but it's imperative that we now stick to that 31 October deadline if we are to meet our environmental habitat and biodiversity goals. It would be good to get that assurance and have a clear timetable for the consideration of the consultation response and the time that farmers will have to prepare for those incoming changes.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I certainly don't want to have to extend the date again, but what I do want is time to consider all the responses we had to the recent consultation, and that is going to be our priority, and has been indeed for a little while for my officials, who are looking at this. But, as soon as that consultation—sorry, those consultations—have been scrutinised by officials and they've come forward with advice to me, I'd be very happy to provide a further statement.

Gareth Davies AS: Good afternoon, Trefnydd. Could I ask for a statement today on care home fees, particularly in north Wales and Denbghshire? I've been reading an article today in the Rhyl Journal saying that Mario Kreft, the chair of Care Forum Wales, has, indeed, written to yourself about the north-south divide in terms of care home funding. What Care Forum Wales are saying is that, essentially, they're missing out on some vital funding up to the sum of around £10,000 in some of the worse cases, and particularly for my constituents in Denbighshire, that's not very good news, seeing as we've got a high concentration of an elderly population, particularly in Rhyl and Prestatyn, and it's not very reassuring to my constituents to read these stories. In light of the fact that Mario Kreft has written to yourself, could I ask for a statement and comments in response to this, detailing whether you have received the correspondence from Care Forum Wales, whether you have had the opportunity to digest the contents of the correspondence, what your view is on that, and whether you see the credit in having an inquiry into a north-south divide in care home fees across my area? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I am aware of the correspondence from the chair of Care Forum Wales, which has been written to me in my capacity as Minister for north Wales. As is always appropriate with Welsh Government correspondence, it's now for consideration by Julie Morgan, as the Minister with responsibility for care home fees. She will respond to Care Forum Wales, and obviously I will be copied into that correspondence.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Trefnydd, could I please have a statement on the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill, on the response from the UK Government to the Senedd withholding its consent for the Bill last week, and the next steps that the Welsh Government intends to take? I see that Matt Wrack of the Fire Brigades Union has written to the Welsh Government and the Scottish Government, urging you to organise summits with the unions to plan a united campaign of resistance. Will you or the First Minister convene such a summit, and will the Welsh Government pledge, as the Scottish Government has already done, that it would never issue or enforce a single work notice if this legislation does become law? And will you be urging Labour Westminster MPs to support the amendment from the Lords by the former Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales, Lord Thomas, which, if adopted by MPs when the legislation returns to the House of Commons, would see the Bill only applying in England, and not in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I'm not aware that the Counsel General—he's in the Chamber and can hear your question—has had any response back from the UK Government following the item in the Chamber last week. But I think that what the Counsel General did make very clear is that we will certainly have nothing to do with this legislation.

Russell George AC: Business manager, the Welsh Government commissioned an independent evaluation of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. After much delay, the report was finally published at the end of March. The evaluation sets out the many ways in which what was called flagship legislation has failed to deliver its intended outcomes. A month ago, the Welsh Government published a writtenresponse, but I would suggest that that isn't adequate. I would ask for, and request, an oral statement on this matter, so that Members of the Senedd can test this further with the Minister.
Secondly, 19 May marks World Inflammatory Bowel Disease Day. Now, I'm aware that patients tend to wait longer with diagnosis for Crohn's and colitis, which are the two main forms of IBD. One of the key contributors to that is delayed diagnosis and the lack of awareness of symptoms. So, can I request a statement on this from the Minister, in terms of helping to improve public awareness of the symptoms of Crohn's and colitis, please? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. With regard to your first question regarding the evaluation of the report on the social services Bill, which was indeed flagship legislation—I think that it was about 10 years ago that that legislation came through this place—I don't think that there's a need for a further statement on top of the written statement that's already been issued.
I can't remember what date you said the day was for the inflammatory bowel condition awareness day, but I do think that there are many, many sufferers of Crohn's disease and other ones, and I will certainly ask the Minister if perhaps she could do a written statement to coincide with that date.

I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution: The Coronation of HM King Charles III

That brings us to item 3, which is a statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution on the coronation of His Majesty King Charles III. I call on Mick Antoniw, the Counsel General, to make the statment.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Llywydd. This weekend, the United Kingdom will witness an event not seen for 70 years. The coronation of King Charles will be a solemn occasion for His Majesty personally, and an important one for many across the United Kingdom as a whole. The United Kingdom of today is a very different place to the country that witnessed the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II in 1953. The social and political changes of the last 70 years have created a modern, multicultural, multi-faith association of nations, and reports of changes to the coronation ceremony to better reflect this modern society, including representation from the other faiths, are to be welcomed.
The constituent parts of the United Kingdom were involved in the late Queen’s funeral and the arrangements for the succession proclamation, and this reflected the new political landscape of a union of voluntary nations. And the coronation this year will similarly reflect Wales's place in the union, and the First Minister and I will be attending the ceremony at Westminster Abbey to represent the Welsh Government.

Mick Antoniw AC: The use of the new Cross of Wales, a gift from the King to the Church in Wales, made of Welsh materials such as slate, reclaimed wood, and silver from the Royal Mint in Llantrisant, to lead the King’s coronation procession at Westminster Abbey, places Wales at the forefront of the ceremony. The coronation will also feature music by Welsh composers and Welsh musicians, reflecting his affection and support for Welsh culture. The coronation orchestra, which includes musicians from the orchestra of the Welsh National Opera, will be joined by royal harpist, Alis Huws, for 'Tros y Garreg', a new arrangement of Sir Karl Jenkins’s setting of a Welsh folk song, a combination of harp and strings, commissioned by the then Prince of Wales over two decades ago. The 'Coronation Kyrie', by Welsh composer Professor Paul Mealor from St Asaph, was specifically commissioned to be set in the Welsh language, rather than the usual Greek. This will be the first Welsh language performance at a coronation, and will be sung by Sir Bryn Terfel and the choir of Westminster Abbey. The coronation will be a moment when they will make a personal commitment to the service of their country. Whilst that service will be in a different role, there can be no doubt about the commitment His Majesty has already shown to this country, his interest in its people and culture, and more recently in our devolved institutions and Parliament.
Members will also recognise their pioneering work in pursuing campaigns that are close to their hearts. He has also been a long-standing champion of environmental causes, warning of risks to our climate and natural habitat long before these entered the political mainstream. The Queen has also been a passionate advocate for victims of domestic violence and sexual abuse, working with charities and partners including Ukraine’s First Lady Olena Zelenska.
This weekend provides us all with an opportunity to consider and reflect on our own commitments to the life of our communities. Starting on the Monday following the coronation, events taking place as part of the Big Help Out will enable people to get involved in supporting the work of local community groups and charities. No matter how much time people give, supporting the work of organisations who often make a vital contribution to the experience of many is one way we can celebrate the life of our communities and our nation.
As has often happened with national celebrations, it will be in many of our communities across Wales, the UK and throughout the Commonwealth that celebrations will be taking place. We have been working closely with the UK Government and the other devolved Governments to ensure the coronation is marked appropriately in Wales. A coronation working group for Wales has also been set up, which comprises of key partners such as lord lieutenants, local authorities, the National Lottery Community Fund and the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, to ensure that towns and communities across Wales are aware of the opportunities in their localities. There will be opportunities to gather together and watch the coronation on big screens at Cardiff Castle, Cardiff Bay, Knighton and Llandegla. Picnics, lunches, concerts, and street parties are being organised in Mumbles, Llangennith, Tonteg, Magor, Brecon, Aberporth and many other Welsh towns. A firework display will be held in Penarth. Services of thanksgiving will be held at cathedrals and churches across Wales and within other faith communities as well.

Mick Antoniw AC: If you will be celebrating over the coming weekend, I hope you have a wonderful time. But, most especially, on behalf of the Welsh Government and on behalf of the people of Wales, I offer our sincerest warm wishes and congratulations. Thank you, Llywydd.

Darren Millar AC: Can I thank the Minister for his statement today on behalf of the Welsh Government? My house will be decorated with some bunting this weekend, and a large union jack flag, in order to commemorate what is a very historic occasion in our nation. Of course, we know that it's over 70 years since we last had the opportunity to witness a coronation event, and I know that many people will be gathered in my constituency in different places and in their own homes in order to celebrate the coronation of His Majesty King Charles and indeed Queen Camilla, the Queen Consort.
Can I say, as well, that I think it's an opportunity to promote Wales? You listed a number of things that will feature in the coronation event from Wales, and I think it shows that Wales is really at the heart of this United Kingdom—the kingdom that Charles will of course be presiding over as our monarch. We know that the cross, which you refer to, is a very special cross. It includes a relic of the true cross that was given by Pope Francis to His Majesty the King, and that of course will be something that many people, I am sure, will want to see for many years to come once it returns to Wales—the Cross of Wales—after the event. But that will literally be leading this coronation event, right at the front of the procession, and then we will have that wonderful sound of the Welsh harp, Welsh music, Welsh voices, as well, that will also be singing too.
Can I ask you, Minister—? One of the things that people are asking me is what is the Welsh Government doing to capitalise on the coronation so that we have a legacy from this, because, we know that Wales is—. We have a very strong affection for King Charles. He served as our longest ever serving Prince of Wales—over 64 years he held that title—and that means that we have a special bond with our King that isn't there in England, Scotland or Northern Ireland, because of that long service. Therefore, I think that there will be a renewed interest in Wales, particularly from those who are watching the coronation from afar internationally, and I want to know what the Welsh Government is doing in order to lever this opportunity for the benefit of our economy and our visitor economy in the future.
Of course, we have a monarch, as well, that speaks Welsh. Whilst he may not be fluent, we heard his excellent Welsh here in the Chamber when he came to speak to us after the death of Her late Majesty, Queen Elizabeth. That gives us, too, an opportunity to promote an interest in the Welsh language and engagement with the Welsh language. So, can I ask you what you are doing to capitalise on that opportunity too?
In addition, you referred to King Charles's interest in climate change and the environment. In fact, he's well ahead of the curve in terms of his campaigning on these things for many decades before he became King. That also, I think, gives us the opportunity to amplify the very important messages that we, as a Senedd, which has declared a climate change emergency, give to the people of Wales, so that people can renew their efforts in order to tackle that particular issue.
Now, we know that some people might be volunteering for the very first time with the Big Help Out on Monday after the coronation events and the Big Lunch on Sunday. That, I think, also provides an opportunity to engage people in more regular volunteering in the future. Where is the Welsh Government looking to capitalise on this event and the huge opportunity that it provides to us all?
On Saturday, at the coronation event, I will be watching a live stream of it in church—Festival Church in Towyn. I shall have my handbell at the ready in order to ring out my congratulations, because we don't have a church bell in the same way that some other churches do, and I'll be screaming at the top of my lungs, 'God save the King' and 'God save the Queen', because of the enthronement that is taking place, and I know that there will be celebrations across the piece.
One of the other interesting things, I think, which we must never forget, is the fantastic work of the Prince’s Trust, which has been going on since 1976. We know that over a million people have benefited from support from the Prince's Trust. Just last year alone, I think it was over 60,000 individuals that actually were helped in terms of getting into employment or establishing their own businesses. A tremendous asset. And one of the things that I would like to see the Welsh Government do is to invest in the Prince's Trust to improve its reach across Wales, to improve engagement with it, so that we can reap even more benefits from its work in the future.
And just finally, one final question. Can I ask you what funding the Welsh Government has made available to local authorities and local communities in order to assist in the recognition of this momentous event so that we can help to mark it properly? I haven't seen any information in relation to funding. I know that many local authorities, town and community councils are helping to fund, in their own small way, events across the nation, but I would like to know, and I think the people of Wales would like to know, what investment the Welsh Government has put into making sure that this event is the roaring success we're all expecting it to be this weekend. Thank you.

Yes, the Minister to respond. Just reminding myself that it was a statement.

Mick Antoniw AC: Firstly, thank you for your comments, and I can, of course, reiterate the fact that Welsh Government has been working with the UK Government and other devolved Governments, and that also there has been the coronation working group for Wales that has been set up, which has a whole series of partners, and they no doubt are not only ensuring that there a certain number of activities around Wales, but that those will carry through for the future.
You make a number of important points, and I think whatever people's views are, whether it be on the monarchy and on the issues around the coronation, there is no doubt, in his former capacity as Prince Charles, that the King has raised environmental issues on a very consistent basis over a number of decades.
I think what is important for any event that takes place, and, again, whatever people's views are, that you look for the way in which communities can nevertheless come together, can use those opportunities, whether it be volunteering, but also for communities, particularly bearing in mind we're still relatively new out of the COVID period, to come together and to enjoy events, to enjoy each other's company and to work together.
In terms of the important ways in which I think Welsh Government can move forward, I actually think it's going to be around issues around the cost-of-living crisis that people are facing. At this moment in time, up and down the country, we are seeing very, very real poverty, very real difficulties that people are facing, and perhaps one of the opportunities coming out of maybe volunteering and out of the events that are around the coronation might well be to focus on some of those who are I think really most in need at this moment in time.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Llywydd, and I was umming and ahing about whether or not I'd speak to this statement today, but I'm glad I am. There is a significant constituency of us within society that would ask a number of questions around this ceremony, and an important moral question as well that needs to be asked. I represent communities, like many Members in this Chamber, that consistently rank high in the index of multiple deprivation. I'm from one of those communities. I still live in that community, where I see people struggling daily. But what's the figure we are now spending on the coronation? What is it—£100 million, £200 million? That's £100 million, £200 million, on a pageant at a time when people in social housing are expected to put up with living conditions that are no good for their health because housing associations can't afford to repair those homes, at a time when students are dropping out of education because they can't afford to learn, at a time when people are going without the essentials to feed their kids or just can't put food on the table or fuel their cars, pay for bus or train tickets, or heat their homes. These people aren't in some far-off place—they live in our communities. They live on our streets. So, tell me: how can we justify spending on such extravagance, a one-off event, when that is the state of the country? We're told that this will bring everyone together, that we can all get up and pledge allegiance. Well, if you want to bring everyone together, sort out the problems that I've outlined; make life easier for the millions that are struggling to survive, rather than spending an exorbitant amount of money on a pageant.
Now, Counsel General, I'd like to ask what discussions have been had on the future of such events, given the fact that the UK is the only country in the world that holds coronation ceremonies like this, because let's face it, and you've already outlined it, 70 years ago was the last one—they're a thing of the past, and they should remain in the past.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you for those comments. Of course, the coronation is a reserved matter. The spending on the coronation is not a matter within the decision making of Welsh Government. What I've tried to do in the statement I've made is to say that we recognise the pressures and the issues that exist now—I've already expressed my own view in terms of Welsh Government, in terms of the importance of the volunteering, communities coming together, but also how there may be opportunities to look at how we actually reflect on the cost-of-living crisis out of this, how it is that out of events such as this people may come together. There is no choice in terms of this matter with regard to Welsh Government, but what we will do is seek to recognise our own responsibilities within the constitutional structure as it exists. We will also then, within our communities, look to represent the views of all the people of Wales to see how the people of Wales can come together, to see how the people of Wales can maximise the opportunities that may come in dealing with the issues that exist in their own communities, the challenges that we face, but how we in Wales come together as a nation as a consequence. Diolch.

Ken Skates AC: Can I first of all thank the Counsel General for making the statement today? It's a very welcome statement indeed, and tomorrow we'll have a further opportunity to debate the coronation, given the Conservatives' debate in the Chamber, and I'm sure that Members across the Chamber will be taking part in that.
For sure, the coronation will be a very inclusive occasion. I'm delighted that Paul Mealor is conducting the event, given that he hails originally from Connah's Quay—in fact, very close to where our colleague Hannah Blythyn grew up, in Jack Sargeant's constituency. It gives us an opportunity to celebrate the best of the culture that exists in our country, right across our diverse communities.
Today, I'd just like to ask two questions. First of all, in the view of the Welsh Government, and in a reformed United Kingdom, as outlined by the proposals from Gordon Brown and his experts, how best could the monarchy serve all parts of the union in the future? And second, Counsel General, would you agree that it would be appropriate now to have a formal mechanism in place for consulting the royal family and, indeed, all of our communities, when it comes to naming landmarks in their names? When we were building the Newtown bypass, we consulted with the community in terms of the naming of key elements of that piece of infrastructure, notably the bridges, and it proved to be incredibly popular; it gave ownership to the community of that piece of infrastructure. I do think that there is great value in empowering and enabling people in that respect. So, would it be right for the naming of infrastructure, including buildings, to be put to communities, and, of course, for a formal mechanism to consult the royal family before a naming actually occurs? Diolch.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, can I thank the Member firstly for his comments and the two questions that he has put? You raised a constitutional issue with regard to a reformed UK, and really what might be the role of the royal family and role of the King with regard to, I suppose, the aspirations that we specifically have within Wales. I think what is very interesting is that you have two types of events: sometimes, those are events that are specifically UK Government-organised events, and those that are actually organised specifically around the royal family. What is very clear—and I tried to make this in my statement—is that—. I attended, of course, the recent funeral of Queen Elizabeth II, and what was very noticeable about that was the very specific role that the devolved nations had within that. They had a very formalised role; it was a recognition there. And I think what is very, very clear about the coronation is that there's going to be very specifically identified input in terms of Wales, its culture and its identity within that. I have to say that I don't see that same level of recognition taking place in UK Government events and international events, where, it seems to me, from time to time, Wales is either marginalised or excluded, probably more on ideological grounds. So, I think there is something to take out in terms of a positive on that.
And in terms of the point you make about names and so on, well, of course there has been some sort of reporting around the issue of that more recently. I think it is important to engage. I think we might be pushing at an open door in terms of the idea that everything new that opens should have some sort of royal connection rather than a community connection and sometimes even a historic connection, and I think we might well be pushing at an open door now, that there is a common view on that, because it's in the benefit, the broader benefit, in terms of the identity of our communities and the identity of Wales as a nation, and as a nation that is very much recognised within those specifically royal constitutional events that take place.

Sioned Williams MS: I'm a trustee of PANTRY foodbank in Pontardawe and, indeed, in our trustees' meeting last week, we heard that PANTRY foodbank have supplied 692 food parcels since January—up over 40 per cent since last year. PANTRY used to spend a couple of hundred pounds each month topping up the donations with shopping for these parcels; now it's well over £1,000 a month. And as we heard in a report last week on foodbank use, Wales has seen the sharpest increase in foodbank use of all the UK nations. I just want to make it clear that this is the context in which the coronation ceremony is happening. Even if you're a supporter of the monarchy, you can't deny that it thus demonstrates the profound economic and geographical divides in our unequal, disunited kingdom. It almost feels to me like a displacement activity, encouraging us to look away from the cavernous divisions in our society and the consequent suffering that is happening in each of our constituencies and regions each day.
Minister, you raise, in your statement, the role of the new King in Welsh national life. I agree it raises issues that are pertinent not only to Welsh nationhood, both in terms of our identity and sovereignty, but I would say also to the kind of society in which we wish to live. We're told the new liturgy, authorised by the Archbishop of Canterbury for the coronation, includes several new elements: recognising, celebrating, diversity and the unity of communities will be at the heart of the ceremony. We've heard reference to that today. Counsel General, do you agree that unity and diversity can be fostered and promoted by celebrating a system that represents the exclusive pinnacle of wealth and privilege, completely closed to all those who do not share a certain genetic pedigree? Diolch.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you for your question. Let me start, first of all, with the issue of foodbanks,and I fully understand the point that is made in terms of money being spent and in terms of the dire state in terms of some of our communities and the increasing dependence on foodbanks, and it's a dependency on foodbanks and a growth of foodbanks that is probably the legacy, the real legacy, of this Tory Government. I want to see an end to foodbanks; I don't want to see foodbanks there. I want to see a welfare system that enables people to live decently, and I also want people who work for a living to be able to have a decent standard of living.
I visited a school in my constituency recently and discussed there, with the family liaison representative in the school, the fact that you have a school that is giving out food hampers. It is identifying where food hampers need to go, where children need to actually have clothing. So, we now have a situation where, building on the foodbank issue, we actually have schools recognising that they now have to have a role in actually supporting some of the poorest within those schools. And that's not just in the one school; it's happening all around in our society. The crux of solving that problem is really to do with the policies of the UK Government and the way in which wealth is distributed in our country, the way in which the benefits system has been undermined. The benefits system has led to cuts, which have directly increased poverty. The main lever in terms of addressing poverty in our communities is through the welfare system. We don’t have most of those levers, we don’t have access to the levers in terms of resources, but there’s no doubt in my mind that it is the cuts in the benefits system that have been the major cause of that dependency on foodbanks, and it is the minimum wage economy that has been fostered that has led to people in work also being dependent, increasingly, on foodbanks. We see some of this response now in terms of the industrial action that’s taking place across, predominantly, England at the moment.
What I would say is that it is the core macroeconomic policies of the Government that are the key factors in terms of doing what’s needed to address the issue of poverty in our society, and also to move towards the elimination of the need for foodbanks. But all the points you raise in terms of what foodbanks mean within our communities, the dependency on them and the fact that so many of our communities are now so increasingly dependent, those sympathies are ones that I am fully in agreement with, as I’m sure most of the people in Wales are, and I think that’s why people are looking for a desperate change in Government at the forthcoming general election.

Alun Davies AC: I’m grateful to the Minister for his statement this afternoon. I think he outlined very well the importance of the event in terms of the story of our national history. This isn’t the time to have a debate on the structures of the finances of the United Kingdom, but it is a point at which a change of reign provides an opportunity for a reflection. I felt that the King, in his contribution here last September, gave us a very moving speech, and he also clearly had been reflecting on his role, and the way that his role was changing constitutionally, and how he would approach his new role at that time as our new King. I think it is important that we have that conversation, and quite often, I think, in terms of the story of devolution, for example, the royal family have been far more clear-sighted on the change in democracy within the United Kingdom than most politicians of both parties, frankly, that have been in Government over that period of time. Certainly, the King in his former role as the Prince of Wales was always very clear that he wanted to see Wales play a full part in the United Kingdom and elsewhere.
Is it possible now, do you think, Minister, for us to have a conversation about where Wales sits in the kingdom, if you like? Because we know that there is an in-built inequality in the sense of the UK as a union between the kingdoms of England and Scotland, and that Wales does not sit in the same position in that constitutional structure. And perhaps at the beginning of a new reign we can now look at these structures that we have inherited from history and perhaps look again at ensuring that Wales is a full part of the United Kingdom, and that Wales is represented on the badges and insignia and standards of the royal family and of the UK as a whole.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for those comments. The point you made at the end, I think, is actually quite an important one. We certainly do have a whole variety of views within our country, and all the opinion polls show that, whether they be views on the monarchy and so on. But the fact of the matter is that we want our people in Wales and across the UK to unite for common purpose, to unite to look for opportunities that there are. But the point you make, of course, is that where we are has a whole series of historical, cultural, economic anomalies, constitutional anomalies, and those at some stage need to be rectified.
To some extent, that’s why we have our independent commission on the constitution set up. It’s also why the Labour Party set up the Gordon Brown commission, because it’s recognised that there’s a whole series of contradictions that exist. Some of those are inherited, many of them have actually been aggravated by this Government, by the undermining of conventions that existed to enable things to work—the undermining of the Sewel convention, for example. For 20 years the Sewel convention worked, there were no breaches; this year alone it looks as though we have eight major breaches of the Sewel convention. So, there’s no doubt that constitutional reform needs to take place, but I think that that also means that some of the inherited customs and traditions and conventions that do exist now are ones that probably do need to be examined as part of that review, which will take place when there is the next Labour Government.
But I think that it is also the fact that there are a number of emblematic, iconic things—you mentioned the herald, the flag and so on—where Wales isn't recognised. Let's be totally honest about it: historically, Wales is part of the United Kingdom because it was conquered. It was a different position that occurred with Scotland, and of course the Irish position has been one of considerable complications as well. But the reality is: is it the case that Wales is better off in having a progressive and democratic structure in terms of the interdependencies that exist between Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and indeed, internationally? The view of this Government is that, quite clearly, it is. But it is one that needs reform, and it is one that needs change.
I think that there are, clearly, indications and opportunities for that engagement with the new King. I think that there are opportunities in terms of what you mentioned earlier about that engagement, more broadly, with the royal family, in terms of the way in which, traditionally, things have been named and so on. And I think that that's a matter that will certainly be part, I think, of the broader discussions that take place once we have the final report of our own independent commission. I look forward to having those debates within this Chamber.

I thank the Minister for that statement.

4. Statement by the Minister for Finance and Local Government: Update on Local Tax Reform

The next item, therefore, is a statement by the Minister for Finance and Local Government: an update on local tax reform. I call on the Minister, Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Today, I am updating Members on our work to reform the local taxes in Wales. Taxes are the admission charge that we pay to live in a civilised society, and the reforms to our local taxes are shaped by our tax policy principles. These are: to raise revenue to fund public services as fairly as possible; to support the delivery of our wider Welsh Government policy objectives; to ensure that taxes are clear, stable and simple, and developed through collaboration and involvement, and contribute directly to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 goal of creating a more equal Wales.
The revenue brought in by our local taxes—more than £3 billion a year—is stable, predictable and cost-effective. It forms the bedrock of a working system—a system that epitomises local democracy. Across our communities we see this money in action, from schools and social care to waste collection. The local taxes that we pay anchor us to the places in which we live. Just as we see the excellent work of local government, day in, day out, we also know that wealth inequality persists across our communities. Our taxes need to move with the times, or we risk them becoming outdated and unfair.
The Welsh Government is delivering reforms to both council tax and non-domestic rates during this Government term, to make them fairer and fit for Wales. Turning first to council tax, Wales is recognised as leading the way on council tax reform. The tax base is already more up to date here than elsewhere and we have an additional tax band for the highest value properties. We have been pioneers in tackling the blight of empty and second homes through taxation. And we have maintained national support for low-income households, which has never been cut.
But we know that there is more to do. Council tax is still regressive in the way that it is designed. It places a higher relative burden on those with lower wealth. And, even though our system is more up to date than elsewhere, it is still 20 years out of date. I sought views last summer on a broad plan and, across the Senedd, the need for reform was recognised. I proposed a fairer council tax, with more progressive bands reflecting the latest data; regular revaluations to ensure fairness into the future; and a review of all of the arrangements for discounts and reductions.
A wide range of stakeholders welcomed the plan. However, I do recognise that some local taxpayers raised concerns. Some people said that they do not know what their council tax pays for, so we will work with local government to improve public information, raise awareness and further understanding. People were also fearful that this exercise was about raising more tax through the reforms. So, I want to be absolutely clear today: this is not about raising a single penny more in overall revenue. It’s about ensuring that the money that we do raise is raised as fairly as possible, based on the ability to pay for essential public services that benefit everyone in Wales.

Rebecca Evans AC: I have been working to translate this broad plan into detailed action, working closely with the Plaid Cymru designated member, Cefin Campbell, on this shared priority.I have commissioned the Valuation Office Agency to undertake revaluation work, using the latest technology to assess property values. I will use this information to build a new system of bands from the bottom up, as we work towards a more progressive tax. I will bring forward legislation in due course to set regular revaluation updates on a statutory footing. As I mentioned earlier, we remain the only part of the UK that has grasped the issue of revaluations, and let’s not underestimate what an achievement that is. My officials have also been collaborating with local authorities and other experts to review each category of discount, exemption, and reduction, and I want to thank everyone who is contributing to that work.
I will deliver a fairer council tax in April 2025 and, later this year, I will set out how the new system will look. I recognise that these are complex changes, and there will be winners and losers. Every year that we continue with the current arrangements brings more unfairness, often experienced most acutely by the poorest households. The evidence and the experts agree that reforming council tax is one of the most beneficial actions we can take to reduce wealth inequalities, and the benefits will be felt in the pockets of those who are most in need by the end of this Government term. As we develop our proposals and modelling, I will consider whether transitional arrangements may be necessary.
Turning now to non-domestic rates: the contributions made by businesses and other ratepayers remain crucial for the delivery of public services, and businesses too reap the benefits of the stronger, fairer and greener Wales that we are building. We are a step closer to a more responsive tax, and I will now make further changes to ensure that it is fit for Wales.
Using non-domestic rates to support economic development continues to be a key objective of this Government, and this has been reflected in our offer to establish a rates retention process, to support city regions and free ports in Wales. Driving collaboration between partners and communities across regional areas is essential to growth, and I remain committed to exploring how best to use all of the levers available to us to support our economic ambitions.
In April of this year, we successfully delivered a non-domestic rates revaluation. This aligns with our commitment to go on building a fairer tax that more accurately reflects the economy. Revaluations inevitably result in tax changes for some ratepayers, but the way that we delivered this exercise clearly evidences our commitment to support Welsh businesses through our £460 million package of support, a fair and straightforward transitional relief scheme, a commitment to freeze the multiplier, and an enhanced retail, leisure and hospitality relief scheme.
We've also made significant steps to improve the appeals system for ratepayers in Wales, working with the Valuation Office Agency to bring forward a new appeals process. This will incorporate the feedback we received through the consultation and the experiences of ratepayers throughout the previous rating list. We remain committed to continually improving the appeals process, and we continue to work in collaboration with the valuation tribunal for Wales to review and improve every aspect of the appeals journey.
Building on the successful delivery of the most recent revaluation and recent changes made to the non-domestic rating system, we have embarked on the wider reforms that we consulted on at the end of 2022. The summary of responses to that consultation was published in February of this year, and I remain focused on establishing new powers to set revaluation cycles, flexibility to make decisions around the multiplier, and delivering relief schemes specifically designed for Wales's needs. We also remain committed to improving the overall administration of the tax, pursuing improvements across every aspect of the system. These changes will utilise primary legislative opportunities to create a fundamentally better local tax for Wales, and one which continues to recognise the vital contribution made by ratepayers.
Thinking about the longer term, we have also made progress on a longer term ambition, examining the potential for a local land value tax to replace both council tax and non-domestic rates, with a view to publishing more information on our work by the end of this term.
I am proud to be driving forward these changes on behalf of the people of Wales, who expect us to tackle the big issues with the levers that we have. I'm pleased with the collaborative and constructive working relationship between local authorities, the Valuation Office Agency and the Welsh Government to deliver fundamental and progressive changes to the local tax system—changes that will deliver real benefits for both citizens and businesses. Our work will transform the way that local taxpayers contribute in society. We are making great progress, and I’m very pleased to discuss this work with Members today.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement this afternoon. I certainly appreciate that this whole topic is challenging for Governments, not just here in Wales, but it is an important, ongoing issue that deserves time and attention today, because, of course, council tax and non-domestic rates do impact people across Wales.
There are a few points I'd like to raise with you this afternoon, Minister. The first is on the issue of revenue raising. As you stated this afternoon, the Welsh Government is not seeking to raise more money from the changes that are proposed. We do, though, hear a lot from either yourself or other Ministers around a lack of money, especially within local authorities as well, so forgive my scepticism slightly if, with extensive, lengthy and protracted reforms, the outcome really is going to be revenue neutral. So, would you be able to reconfirm today that additional tax revenue is not the intention behind this reform?
You also acknowledge that there'll be winners and losers. I'd like to know who you think those winners and losers will be. Of course, there are many people going through difficult times at the moment. We know the pressures of Putin's illegal war in Ukraine, and it's essential that we protect people as much as possible, instead of creating more—to use your word—losers in the system. With this in mind, Minister, can you provide any further detail as to what any transitional arrangements may look like for taxpayers caught up in any changes?
I'd also like to ask about the non-domestic ratings of your statement today. The parts relating to smoothing the process for businesses are certainly welcome, but I expect there is to be a devil in the detail of much of what is to be produced. To be clear, on this side of the benches, we believe that business rates are still too high, and reducing those rates would be a great way to support Welsh businesses at a difficult time, especially for small and medium enterprises, which we know are the engines of growth in our economy. I know, Minister, there is some concern around fraud and avoidance in the area of business rates, so I'd be grateful if you'd be able to expand on what you and the Government are doing to tackle some of this as well.
Going back to the council tax, you briefly mentioned exemptions in your statement, and this is something that really needs urgent clarity in my mind to put people at ease. We know that people who are the only adult in a property are currently given a 25 per cent discount on their council tax. This is certainly something that supports a huge range of people in Wales, from young people to single people who are perhaps elderly, perhaps those who are widowed and living on their own. It also supports groups like single mothers, with that 25 per cent making a huge difference to their quality of life and ability to manage the cost of day-to-day living. Of course, if this exemption or level of support is removed, it will equate to a 33 per cent council tax rise for those single-person households, which will be on top of the significant council tax rises that people across Wales are already seeing from local authorities. It will be a direct hit on a large number of vulnerable and worse-off people in Wales. Minister, can you confirm today that this exemption, this level of support, will remain the same with any reform? Thank you very much.

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm very grateful to Sam Rowlands for his questions this afternoon, and for the very constructive approach that he's been taking from the start to the whole agenda of making improvements to our local taxes in order to ensure fairness in the system.
I'll just begin by answering that first question that Sam Rowlands raised about revenue neutrality. Just to reassure Sam Rowlands, and everybody who has an interest in this, the purpose of this exercise is not to raise a penny more in council tax from people living in Wales. Instead, it's about ensuring that the tax that we do raise is done in a much fairer way. I think that that is one of the important messages that we need to continue to work on, in terms of that communication that we have with the public, because it was a concern that was raised through the consultation process. Some people are worried that their homes have increased in value since the last revaluation 20 years ago; that's probably the case for almost all properties. But again, it's not the case that, just because your home has increased in value, you will see an increase in your council tax rates, because, actually, what matters is the relative position of your home across all properties in Wales, and also, of course, any discounts and exemptions that you might be eligible for.

Rebecca Evans AC: I know Sam Rowlands was asking about our review of the discounts. Just to confirm, the reforms include reviewing whether our system of discounts, disregards, exemptions and premiums could be improved in any way, in order to help achieve a fairer and more modernised system. Any proposals that do come forward will be subject to consultation, of course. We do have a working group of Welsh Government officials, alongside local authority practitioners, who have been working to review every single category of discount, disregard, exemption and premium. They've had a series of workshops and carried out initial reviews, at this point, of all of the 53 different categories that we have there, to determine if they remain fit for purpose, both from a policy perspective and an operational perspective. The group has advised that a number of the categories remain fit for purpose, and that others will need some more consideration in terms of how they work, or they might need some additional guidance to assist effective implementation. Alongside that, then, the group will consider whether there needs to be any new discounts or disregards or exemptions. Obviously, we'll be seeking views from stakeholders beyond local government in that. Beyond that, no specific decisions have been taken in relation to that range of exemptions and so on.
Of course, it is the case that there will be winners and losers. In terms of those impacts on households, we're really aware that council tax changes will affect households and their finances in a very direct way. We're assessing the implications at the moment, and considering the options, and we'll outline more details alongside our next phase of consultation, later on in the year. At the moment, we are in the process of receiving new data, which will help us to design a system. When we do have that data, and we've considered it, and done the modelling that we need to do, we'll know more then about the number of households that will benefit or be impacted adversely by the changes. We are exploring whether there is a need for transitional arrangements. But again, until we've done the modelling and made decisions about what the bands might look like in future, then it's hard to go further than just considering things at the moment.
When we did the previous research, commissioned from the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which was in 2019, they estimated that undertaking revaluation and keeping the current nine bands—that's something, of course, that is up for consideration at the moment—would move 25 per cent of properties up bands, 26 per cent would move down bands, and around 49 per cent would stay the same. Of course, that doesn't take into account our ambitions to introduce new bands and to reform the system, but it does give a flavour, at least, of the changes that there might be as a result of the changes.
Moving on to non-domestic rates and the points that were made there, the consultation that we undertook previously included a wide range of areas, including the move to more frequent revaluations—we're committed to doing that, to keep the system fair and up to date; the potential to vary the multiplier—we're considering what that might look like, and what the different choices might be there; the importance of improved information flows—again, that's really part and parcel of our approach to tackling fraud and avoidance; and reviewing the existing package of reliefs and exemptions, which, again, is really important to make sure that we have a system that is fair and appropriate.
Just to give an update on some of the progress that we've been making in terms of tackling fraud and avoidance, information from local authorities does suggest that £10 million to £20 million might be lost through rates avoidance every year. Obviously, that's funding that is vital for public services. And while avoidance might only be undertaken by a small minority of ratepayers, when they don't contribute their fair share, obviously, it's to the detriment of local services and the wider community, and, of course, other ratepayers as well. In 2018, we announced a package of measures to tackle fraud and avoidance of NDR, and that requires a mix of primary and secondary legislation to be bring in. But we have made some progress in that area, for example in terms of the new regulations, which have applied for a year or so now, to tackle the misuse of empty property relief. That was a real concern, I think, for local government. We've extended the period now for which properties must be occupied before receiving any period of relief. I think that that's something thta was warmly welcomed by local government and something that I discussed in some detail with the Charity Commission as well. We're making very good progress in that area, but I think there's still more that we can go at.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you to the Minister for her statement. I warmly welcome the statement, because it does show that we are moving in the direction that Plaid Cymru has wanted this Government to move in for many years now, that's towards a local taxation system that is fairer and less regressive, and better reflects residents' ability to pay. I don't share the cynicism of the Conservatives. To be fair with the Minister, every time she's got up to talk about council tax, she's made the point that this process will be revenue neutral. She's also made the point that any increase will be relative in terms of the value of homes and how much individuals will pay. And, also, in talking about winners and losers, we have heard about the statistic that some 75 per cent with either see a reduction or no change. Clearly, introducing new bands may change that slightly, but, broadly speaking, I think we are certainly on the right track in this regard.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Plaid Cymru made it clear in our Senedd election manifesto that the council tax, as it is, is out of date, it's regressive and it's distortionary. The values of properties in different parts of Wales, of course, have changed in very different ways over the 20 years since the last revaluation. I've heard examples of it increasing more than twice as much in Blaenau Gwent compared to Wrexham, for example, and we know that properties are in increasingly arbitrary tax bands. You can have two households living in equally valuable properties within the same local authority that find themselves paying tax bills that are hundreds of pounds different to each other, just because, of course, the value of their properties 20 years ago. In our manifesto, we committed to reform council tax to make it fairer and more progressive. We committed to revaluations, increasing the number of bands et cetera, and in the longer term as well, not just these initial changes. We committed to bring forward proposals for a new and fairer land and property tax. This statement, as I say, shows that we are delivering on those commitments as part of the co-operation agreement.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I'll move on to a few specific questions. I'm just looking for some clarity. You say that this new system will be ready by April 2025. Is that ready in terms of the work that we as parliamentarians need to do, or will it be introduced on the ground from April 2025? How ambitious or practical is that? Perhaps you could tell us. But it also raises another question as to what support you will provide to local authorities in introducing and implementing this new system. Clearly, there will need to be administrative changes, changes to software and so on. And you've touched on the point on the need to raise awareness not only in terms of what this tax pays for, but also on the fact that the change is going to occur.
You've given an assurance on exemptions remaining within the new regime, and that's important. I was disappointed to see some press reports on the possibility of scrapping the reduction to single-person households. Perhaps you could mention that, because it's important that we reassure those people, but also silence those who are scaremongering around the proposed changes. Can you also give us an update on the work of the Valuation Office Agency, which is doing this revaluation of domestic property? Where are they in the process? When do you expect them to complete the process? Because I assume that will help us set a baseline for any new possible bands.
Finally, in relation to the timetable for broader changes, you talk about a local land tax. You talk about making a statement by the end of this term. I assume that means before the summer. But what's the ambition? Are we likely to see any change on the ground before the end of this Senedd term? I don't think we are, but perhaps you could explain your ambitions. Do you hope that the legislation and regulation will be in place to take action during the seventh Senedd, or are you just looking to air some ideas and to take that into the next Senedd? I think it would be useful for us to have an idea as to the length and breadth of the longer term changes. Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm very grateful to Llyr Gruffydd for those questions this afternoon. Just again to pick up on that point about the importance of us all doing what we can to communicate that this is a revenue-neutral activity, I think that once you get past that with the public, then you can start talking about the benefits of council tax, because it really did come through quite strongly in the consultation that people didn't really understand what their council tax paid for, or some people didn't understand and some people were concerned about it being a revenue-raising activity. So, I think one of the things that we have decided to do—and this was a decision that I know I've discussed at length with Cefin Campbell—is about the importance of creating a place where there is a better exchange of information with the public, and just some place where they can go to find out the facts, really, about council tax and what it means for them locally. That came through strongly in the consultation, and Cefin Campbell and I are really keen that we respond to that particular point.
In terms of the governance arrangements for the whole project, we have a local tax reform working group, and that comprises key stakeholders in local government, the Valuation Office Agencyand the Valuation Tribunal for Wales, and also a range of other representative bodies. They're helping us think through the implications of each decision that we will have to take on this particular journey. But in terms of the revaluation and rebanding, of course, we are the only place in the UK that has updated its valuations since council tax was introduced, meaning that council tax bills in England and Scotland are actually based on 1991 valuations, so it is a real undertaking in order to do this work. There are around 1.5 million domestic dwellings in Wales that are liable for council tax, and obviously, they are placed in those bands that were set on the property values as of 1 April 2003. Obviously, it can't be right for people to be taxed on a 20-years-out-of-date system.
So, in terms of the work that we have commissioned the VOA to undertake, that is a revaluation, and that will update everybody's tax band from 1 April 2025, on the basis of property values of 1 April 2023, because at the moment, it's set in legislation that there have to be two years between the date of the new incoming valuation list and the changes that might take place in terms of council tax. Now, we can look to potentially address that in the legislation that will come forward, but at the moment, that means that April 2025 will be when we move to the new system of council tax, so people should start seeing those changes in terms of fairer council tax by the end of this Government.
There is a lot of work to do as well in terms of the impact on local government. The reforms would obviously change the nature of the tax base in each area of Wales, and our phase 1 consultation proposed that we would redistribute the settlement allocations accordingly, and local government and the WLGA are signed up to that principle. But our phase 2 consultation, now, which will come forward in the autumn, will consider those impacts in greater detail. Obviously, it will still remain for local councils to take into account all of the sources of funding available to them locally and to set their own council tax rates, but they will obviously have to continue to make difficult decisions as they do now, but again, the tax base will be changing, so we need to really understand what the impact is of that on each local authority, and consider again if there are any particular arrangements that we need to put in place to address that.
On the issue of the land value tax, at the moment, obviously, we're exploring replacing both local taxes over time with a new way of generating funding for local services. Taxing land as an asset is potentially more progressive and can have some wider benefits, including the better use of land, for example, but obviously it is a harder thing to do, and it is important that we get that right. So, I don't envisage the work in this Government term involving more than the preparatory work, the exploratory work going further than the work that Bangor University undertook for us in terms of its detailed technical assessment of last term. We need to draw on a really wide range of expertise to develop an understanding of what the change might look like for Wales, but we have said that it will include a potential road map for how we would get there. So, I imagine that that road map would be something that we would be in a position to share by the end, again, of this Government term, because the amount of work involved in this is immense, and the need to understand the implications of the very, very huge choices, which might need to be made in that space, are very serious. But I really want to keep the entire Senedd fully involved with and up to date on all of this work, because I do think that we all have a shared interest in making the system fairer and more progressive.

Mike Hedges AC: I welcome the statement. Council tax and business rates are the most disliked taxes by the rich. They are very difficult to avoid. Compare these taxes to taxes such as income tax and corporation tax, which are easily reduced and avoided. The revenue brought in by our local taxes is more than £3 billion a year—it's stable, predicable and cost effective. The value of a house is probably the best way of identifying someone's personal wealth. Will the Minister be considering increasing the number of bands, making them narrower, increasing the number of upper bands, and changing the multiplier, creating a system where the proportion of the house value paid is the same for each band, or as a fixed percentage of the value of the property, and ending the 25 per cent discount on properties that are currently band E and higher?
On rates, it's important to have businesses paying into the public services. Has the Minister considered returning business rates to local authorities? Has the Minister considered changing the rates system to raise more from supermarkets and online retail warehouses?And finally, has the Minister thought of the effect of a land value tax on social housing in areas of very high land value?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm very grateful to Mike Hedges for those questions and for his ongoing interest I know spans many years in terms of improving council tax.
I completely agree with him that there are some benefits, absolutely, of property tax regimes being stable, predictable and cost effective. The administration of council tax is extremely cost effective. It's possible for authorities to have a longer term understanding, at least, of the kind of revenues that might be raised locally. So, there's certainly a lot to commend council tax, but the problem that we do have with it is that it is regressive in its current design, and that's really what we need to be addressing and what our proposals seek to address. So, yes, the ideas that Mike Hedges has suggested form part of our considerations, and particularly those about increasing the number of bands. So, we could, you know—. Again, all of these things are things that we're currently considering at the moment, but it might be that we have more bands at the top end and that at the bottom end, the gaps between those bands are smaller. So, these are things that we're considering at the moment. What we really need now is to consider the work that the VOA has been undertaking for us. So, when we do have that data and we've been able to look at it properly, we can model different choices that are available to us, and then we'll be able to understand what the impact will be on various different types of households, so we can do that distributional analysis and think about it alongside, then, the work that we're doing on the discounts, exemptions, premiums, and so on, to ensure that the system that we do have going forward is much fairer and more progressive.
In terms of the point about devolving business rates to local authorities, it's not the intention to devolve business rates to local authorities; it's actually the case, as I know Mike Hedges knows, that only a small number of authorities actually pay more into the pot than they receive. So, the system that we do have at the moment does allow us to redistribute the funding raised through non-domestic rates in an effective, fair and reliable way. But what we are doing is thinking about ways in which the city deals, or free ports, for example, might, in future, be able to retain some of the additional non-domestic rates that they generate as a result of the additional business that is developed in those particular areas because of the choices and the investment that they make. So, that is something that we are considering, and something that we've had some discussions about in terms of the city regions.
The point about an online sales tax is really important. It was disappointing that, following consultation, the UK Government decided against the introduction of an online sales tax. I just think it suggests that the UK Government is not willing to move with the times. So much of what people buy nowadays is bought through online retailers, and I think that we can't ignore that fact and it does need to be part of our considerations going forward. I think it really does reflect the complexity of this, but I know that the UK Government was concerned about the complexity and the risk of creating unintended distortion or unfair outcomes between different business models, but I think that there's certainly more that needs to be done in terms of thinking about how we create a system that reflects the ways in which people are purchasing things now.
We don't have the power ourselves to introduce our own version of an online sales tax, so it's something that we'll continue, through our officials, to have discussions with the UK Government about. I think relations are good between officials in Welsh Government and UK Government in terms of the discussions around non-domestic rates.
Again, I think the questions about land value tax and how that might operate in future will be things that we will need to consider very carefully as we move forward with that work.

John Griffiths AC: Thank you for your statement today, Minister, and thank you for the work you've done to make council tax fairer and the plans you have to make it fairer still. One thing I'd like to raise with you today, Minister, is the approach of local authorities in Wales to collection and recovery of council tax arrears, because I think that's part of having a fairer system and that's something that could be addressed, and is being addressed, to some extent, here and now.
I welcome the fact that the Senedd and Welsh Government made it no longer a criminal offence to not pay council tax. I think that's absolutely right. I just wonder what work you might be doing, Minister, with local authorities to have what I would describe as a more enlightened and productive approach to preventing debt, and if people are in debt, for example, with regard to their council tax, to the recovery of arrears. Because I think, for example, the use of bailiffs very often is counterproductive; bailiffs add to the debt with their charges, and that can make it much more difficult for repayment to take place. And I think, very often, when households or individuals are faced with large debts, they cannot see a way through in terms of making repayments, and sometimes, nothing is recovered when a more realistic repayment plan would recover moneys.
So, I just wonder what you're doing to work with local authorities to provide support for things like assigning a money adviser to families and individuals to help them get their affairs in better order, and also, Minister, whether local authorities are encouraged to use bailiffs that are part of the voluntary registration scheme that addresses the standards and the conduct of those bailiffs. And finally, whether local authorities are encouraged to have and to use vulnerability policies to inform debt recovery and their attitude to these matters.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you. I'm very grateful to John Griffiths for raising these important points around the collection and recovery of council tax. We have incredibly high levels of collection of council tax in Wales, which I think is important, and it does reflect on the success, I think, of our council tax reduction scheme, which we have in place at the moment, which does support those households that are least able to pay by either providing them with a level of support or ensuring that they pay no council tax at all. That council tax reduction scheme is part of our work looking at the reform programme, examining whether the scheme is fit for purpose and what we need to do in terms of reflecting the fact that universal credit has come in. People are sometimes falling through gaps, so we need to make sure that everybody who is entitled to support receives it.
But I think the point, really, thatJohn Griffiths was making was around ensuring that we deliver on the protocol that we have with local government in terms of council tax collection, which local government is signed up to, and it really is about having that person-centred approach to the collection of council tax. That's about ensuring that it's trauma informed, that the first instinct is always to find out what's happening in that household, why are they struggling, are they entitled to support they're not receiving, do we need to undertake a benefits check with this family—you know, those kinds of things, rather than taking a heavy-handed approach. I will raise the point that John Griffiths raised around the voluntary register scheme for bailiffs. I think that's an important one, so, the next opportunity I get, I will make that point with colleagues in local government. ButI think one of the most important things that we're thinking through how we introduce, as part of the legislation that we'll be bringing forward, is to change the law. So, at the moment, where a household misses one payment on their council tax, they automatically become liable for the whole year, and obviously that puts a household that is in potentially a difficult position, into a much, much more difficult one. So, we're looking, at the moment, at how we can remove that as part of our legislative approach. And I think it follows some of the other things that we've been trying to do to take a more understanding and person-centred approach.
So, the reference was made to it no longer being a criminal offence to miss payment or not pay your council tax. Well, we've also done things, for example, such as ensuring that care leavers are exempt from council tax up to the age of 25. And another thing that I want to look at, in our legislation moving forward, is just some of the terminology that is used. So, at the moment, you're eligible for exemption, potentially, if you have what's referred to as 'a serious mental impairment', and I just think that's just such a horrible way to refer to people. It does have, at the moment, a legal standing, which is why it's used, but just looking again at some of this terminology, I think, will be important as part of our legislation as well.

Thank you, Minister.

5. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Update on the Six Goals for Emergency Care Programme

The next item is item 5, a statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services, update on the six goals for emergency care programme. The Minister for health to make the statement—Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Thank you for this opportunity to update Members on progress made by the six goals for urgent and emergency care in the 12 months since establishment. I'm pleased to publish a report today outlining progress in detail and to set out plans for 2023-24.
We know that timely access to effective urgent and emergency care services when people need them is incredibly important to the population of Wales, and supporting clinical teams to deliver optimal services is a priority for the Welsh Government. This has not always been possible over recent times, with many people waiting long periods for a response, assessment and treatment, and that's partly because of a huge increase in demand. For example, the latest data shows the number of ambulance red—that's life-threatening—calls were 93 per cent higher in March 2023 than they were in March 2019. The significantly increased demand has resulted in additional challenges to dedicated and skilled staff working across the urgent and emergency care pathway. This is why, alongside a range of key stakeholders, we developed our six policy goals for urgent and emergency care. The six goals act as a whole-system framework for health boards, NHS trusts, regional partnership boards and local authority partners, to guide them in the development of their integrated plans. Delivery of the six policy goals is a priority for the Welsh Government.
To help health boards and partners deliver the goals, I commissioned a new programme, which was launched in April 2022, and I also agreed to provide £25 million in recurring funding to enable accelerated progress. In year 1 of the programme, important foundations have been laid, including the establishment of a programme board and robust governance structure; the appointment of a national programme director and clinical/professional leadership representing urgent primary care, emergency medicine, social care and frailty; and the implementation of local six goals programmes by health boards and the appointment of their own leadership teams. This has enabled some stability across the urgent and emergency care pathway. So, despite the unprecedented demand over the winter, performance at major emergency departments in Wales has bettered English performance for the last seven months and has remained steady, in contrast to all other parts of the United Kingdom.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Eluned Morgan AC: The board oversaw delivery of a programme plan in year 1 that has enabled real progress to be made at a national, regional and local level against two priority areas and other key deliverables. The key priority was to support the establishment of new urgent primary care centres and services that help people access urgent care in their local communities, and reduce pressure on in-hours GP and emergency department services. Since the start of this project, 13 urgent primary care centres have been established across Wales through cluster-based, co-located models at hospitals, and they serve a population of 2.2 million people.
The latest NHS data shows that 9,000 people access urgent primary care centres every month without needing a traditional GP appointment or presentation at emergency departments. These new centres have been particularly valuable during the winter period, when a combination of strep A and COVID-related activity threatened to overwhelm the system.
The second key priority was to establish and increase access to same-day emergency care services—SDECS—to help people access diagnostics and treatments and to return to sleep in their own bed on the same day. There are now same-day emergency care services operating across 12 sites in Wales, as well as a new innovative new community-based model. There have been extensions of available hours of operation in year 1 of the programme, with some services now operating seven days a week.

Eluned Morgan AC: NHS data show that around 75 per cent of patients accessing these services are receiving the care they need and are returning home without need for hospital admission. This should help to optimise their experience and outcomes whilst also freeing up bed capacity for others with a need for a hospital stay for clinical reasons. We have also seen real progress in developing and implementing key clinical pathways in communities.
These are some examples. As well as the 111 support line, NHS Wales's '111—press 2' mental health crisis pathway is helping eight in 10 people to avoid the need to access an urgent or emergency care service. New video consultation technology is contributing to very high levels—up to 15 per cent—of 999 patients being safely discharged following remote clinical assessment. We've provided an additional 687 step-down beds or community equivalent packages of care through joint working between local government and NHS partners via the care action committee, which is supported by the six goals programme team. We've introduced a new optimal hospital patient flow framework, which is contributing to improvement and reduction in long hospital stays according to new NHS data. We also have a new hospital discharge data collection system, which will ensure we have relevant, comparable and accurate data going forward. This in turn will help us to determine more clearly where patients are in the system and what their needs are.
Community pharmacies also play an increasingly important part in our response to rising demand for NHS services. Between November and the end of March this winter community pharmacies provided more than 100,000 appointments for people with common minor ailments, a 46 per cent increase on the number in the same period the previous winter. Whilst we recognise that there is not a silver bullet to overcome the ongoing daily challenges experienced by patients and staff, we do expect further positive impacts and continuous improvement against key programme measures in this coming year.
The plan has evolved this year to focus on some key principles. This includes supporting health boards to deliver the right capacity in key service areas in the out-of-hours periods; it also includes seven-day delivery; and, ultimately, focusing on getting the basics right in areas such as discharge planning.
On top of this, we will also be developing and implementing key clinical pathways focused on mental health, urgent dental care and also palliative care. We will be developing an integrated urgent care model, 24/7, which will incorporate NHS 111 Wales, urgent primary care centres, speciallty advice and guidance lines, out-of-hours primary care, and minor injuries units.
We'll be safely reducing 999 ambulance conveyances to emergency departments. We will be increasing the volumes of patients who access same-day emergency care services and are discharged home on the same day. And we will be reducing the volumes of patients who experience a length of stay over seven days, and those who remain in hospital for over 21 days.
Health boards will continue to receive nearly £20 million in additional funding to support the delivery of these priorities, and £5 million will be used to develop new tools, nationally commissioned pilots and tests of change to enable accelerated progress. In year 2, I expect national and programme plans to have more impact on the outcomes and experiences of those people who use the NHS here in Wales. Thank you.

Russell George AC: Can I thank the Minister for the update, as, of course, the six goals were published, I think, two years ago? Staff and patients in emergency care in that period have had a very difficult time. I think that’s probably an understatement and something, of course, that we regularly see in the news.
So, the Welsh NHS recorded its worst ever A&E waiting times, as well as its slowest ambulance response times and longest treatment list as well. So, even looking at the latest statistics, we see Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board failing to see nearly 40 per cent of patients within the four-hour target, and the Grange in Gwent barely saw half of A&E patients in that time.
I'd also point out the over 10,000 patients across Wales waiting for over 12 hours for emergency treatment in March alone—10,000 patients over 12 hours in March alone. That’s 11 per cent of all attendances. That’s six times the proportion in England. So, I hear the Minister making reference to some of the statistics in England, and that’s how I would respond to that.
So, this is certainly an area, I think, where the health Minister and the Welsh Government need to act, as I don’t think we’ve seen the sufficient progress that is needed. We were supposed to, of course, see average ambulance response times in both red and amber calls improve year on year. We haven’t seen that, unfortunately, and the only reason why we may get an annual improvement from now on is because they've been driven so low—so, working from a low base.
Now, in fairness, and looking comparatively, it seems that England and Wales were performing fairly equally when it comes to average response times to red calls—usually only a few seconds away from each other. But, when it comes to amber calls, those in England take half an hour to arrive, and those in Wales take twice as long. So, I simply ask why that is the case. I think we need to understand the ‘why’ in order to drive improvement.
On goals 5 and 6, despite promises to get healthy patients discharged safely and appropriately as fast as possible, last winter saw hundreds of patients stuck in hospital due to the lack of community care packages available. I note the earlier goal about having more ambulance availability, but of course the real issue is people being in hospital when they don't need to be there. On 3 January, Swansea bay health board had 280 patients who were medically well enough to leave hospital, but could not yet be at home independently. There was an equivalent number also at Singleton Hospital. Three days later, the number of patients waiting to leave hospital across Wales reached 1,800, so that's 3,500 people not being in the right place. This was an enormous backlog at that point in time, so I probably would ask the Minister a question now: was it this enormous backlog and the need to meet your planned objectives that made the Welsh Government advise health boards to discharge patients even though there was no care package in place, against the advice of, of course, the British Medical Association, and patients' families felt that that was a negative step?
And, again, in our Health and Social Care Committee, in our discharge work, from hospitals, communications were a real big issue, with patients and patients' families not receiving communications about their discharge in a timely manner. So, I wonder if the Minister can comment on any update in that regard.
I note, as well, the Welsh Government have taken great pride in launching the 24/7 mental health service provision. That is good. I welcome that, but this has only just happened now, three years after England. I wonder if the Minister could tell us whether she considered working with NHS England instead of delaying access to this vital service in the name of duplication.
This brings me to the NHS app. One of the six goals is co-ordinating planning and support for populations at greater risk of needing urgent or emergency care. However, in order to achieve this, it is of course crucial that GPs and hospital doctors can easily and quickly communicate with each other and share information about a patient. To achieve this, primary and secondary care need, I'd suggest, IT and technology that can communicate with each other, and, in part, this means getting the NHS Wales app up and running. I wonder if the Minister can tell us when the app is going to move from its pilot phase to an active phase, and also whether that app will actually help health professionals themselves communicate with each other.
Finally, I noticed you talked a lot about hospital flow. I'd like to ask you a little bit about the role of artificial intelligence. I'm aware that technology is currently being tested in hospitals in Hywel Dda health board, predicting when patients will be ready to leave hospital upon their arrival in accident and emergency, and I was reading with interest that the software analyses data, including age, medical conditions, previous stays, to estimate how long a patient will need a bed. Hospital managers can then, of course, alert care services in advance about the dates when patients are expected to be discharged, allowing care beds or community care packages, et cetera, to be prepared. So, I'd be grateful if the Minister, if she's aware of this pilot, could update the Senedd in this regard on this pilot, whether there's any consideration of rolling this out further, and why there was no mention of AI at all in the plan. Thanks.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. It has been probably the most challenging winter that the NHS has ever seen, and one of the reasons for that is because we've seen demand like we've never seen before. Whilst the Member wants to look at a half-empty glass, I'm trying to look at a more positive picture. Now, I know it's challenging, but what I can tell you is that our four-hour release is better and has been better than England for the past seven months, and that, actually, English officials of the NHS are coming to Wales to look at our six goals programme, because, actually, our system was stable whilst theirs went pretty much out of control. So, they're coming to us to find out and to learn from what we've done.
The demand has increased everywhere, in England and in Wales. I do think it's worth just focusing on that 93 per cent increase in the number of red calls since 2019. So, however much we'd have prepared, I think it would have been really, really difficult for us to foresee that kind of increase in demand. But what we have done is to recruit an extra 350 ambulance staff over the past couple of years, which has helped to alleviate that situation, and also, of course, continued to invest in ambulances themselves, but also in the kit that ambulances use. And I think it's really worth emphasising that this new remote ability to assess a patient with cameras, with new equipment, means that we've released 15 per cent of people just through that one mechanism, who would otherwise have been transported to hospital. So, new technology is helping us in that regard.
In relation to goals 5 and 6, as you pointed out, what we have got is a keen focus on how we provide alternatives to hospital care, and I'm very keen to shift our focus to prevention. So, if people don't come in in the first place, then we don't have the flow issue. So, providing the support in the community is crucial, and I'll have more to say about our ambitions in that space very shortly. But one of the key things that we've changed is that we've reintroduced a new way of collecting data. So, prior to the pandemic, we did have data, but everyone was collecting it differently, so you couldn't do the comparisons. That's now all changed so that everybody is collecting and reporting on data in the same way, which in turn will make it easier for us, in time, to identify not just where the patients are, but what's wrong with them and what's the blockage in the system, and everybody will be reporting in the same way. So, that's a significant shift as well. You'll be aware also that those 687 beds that we developed in partnership with local government over winter have saved tens of thousands of hospital bed days, and that was a huge effort, and I think that was a very commendable effort by everybody.
In terms of discharge, I'm not going to apologise for asking for people to be discharged if it's clinically safe for them to be discharged. So, we were very clear when we gave an instruction to health boards that it's got to be when they're clinically safe. But time after time, report after report has said the best thing to do is to get people home and to make the assessment at home. People are more comfortable at home, and every day they're in a hospital bed, they are losing muscle tone and muscle mass. And that's not good for them. I've just heard from somebody just now who's looking after a very poorly parent who's just caught COVID. You're less likely to catch COVID if you're not in a hospital. So, it makes absolute sense for us to get people home as soon as we can, as soon as it's safe for them to do so, but to provide that support within the community.
And when it comes to '111 press 2', I think we should be really proud of the speed at which this has been brought online, and I know that the Deputy Minister will be making a more detailed statement on this very soon. Digital issues: oh, I spend a lot of my time trying to drive digital change within the NHS, and it's never fast, I'm afraid. But we're getting there with the NHS app. It is being used in practice, in many GP surgeries already, but I'll have a statement again to get into more detail on that very soon. And obviously, we're rolling out e-prescribing in primary care centres; that's coming soon as well. But you can't do AI unless your data collection is robust. So, collecting the right data, making sure there's consistency is the first step towards that.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you to the Minister for this afternoon's statement. Of course, I agree on the need to put a programme in place in order to strengthen and to take pressure off emergency services in hospitals specifically. The Government is right in doing that, and it's appropriate that we measure progress a year after the launch of this.
In some ways, I have to say that we can see that there has been significant progress against some of the pledges made, including the establishment of a network of urgent primary care centres, including one in my own constituency in the Penrhos Stanley hospital. One question in relation to that: the statistics on that particular centre show that a very, very high percentage of patients who've been referred there come from two surgeries that have been facing troubles in recent years. A handful have been referred there from most of the surgeries on Anglesey and hundreds from the Longford Road and Cambria surgeries. That doesn't give one the impression that the centres are sustainable. It gives the impression that they are there for the purposes of firefighting, in a way. I wonder if the Minister could comment on how we ensure that these centres do become a sustainable part of the broader health system.
I fully understand that the Minister is eager to give the best possible impression of the situation as it currently stands, but I'm sure the Minister would agree that the best possible version of a situation that is still terribly bad in terms of emergency care in Wales is what we have here. I note that the Minister states that Wales is performing far better than England. I will make a comment on that. The Minister says that often. The Conservatives like to highlight the fact that England is doing better than Wales. The Minister will notice that I don't spend too much time comparing Wales with England specifically. Yes, I want to compare Wales with England, where relevant, but also with the best places in the world in terms of healthcare provision.
So, perhaps some of the statistics on emergency services do look better than England at the moment, but they are still poor. The figures for those treated in less than four hours—far better than England, according to the Minister. But the reality of the situation is that the latest figures do demonstrate that there has been a significant increase in the numbers waiting in A&E depatments—some 14.7 per cent more in March than in the previous month. Fewer have been treated within four hours and more have waited more than eight hours. So, that's the background to these figures. Let's not be drawn into comparisons between Wales and England when the situation in England is clearly exceptionally poor. Things aren't good enough in Wales either, and that's the truth of the matter.
The other concern that emerges from the statistics I have in front of me is a concern about the workforce. The workforce census in terms of emergency medicine in Wales shows, once again, that there are substantial challenges facing us in terms of the recruitment and retention of staff. There hasn't been much reference from the Minister today to the emergency care workforce specifically. So, I wonder if the Minister could tell us what work is being done in relation to this afternoon's statement to ensure that we have the right number of the right people in the right places, in order to ensure that we can provide emergency services that are effective and of quality here in Wales. Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. One of the programmes that we have been focusing on to ensure that people understand the new system is the 'Help Us to Help You' programme, and people across Wales—. If people haven't seen it, you've been living in a cave, because it's been everywhere over the winter, so that people understand there are other places that they can go, and what's good is that people are starting to use these: 10,000 patients per month using urgent primary care centres, 4,500 people using same-day emergency care centres, 78,000 calls to 111 in March, 338,000 people visiting the 111 website. So, that all helps to avoid people having to go to our emergency departments. So, that is a situation that is very difficult, but time and time again I think, 'Thank goodness we introduced this programme before going into the winter that we've just gone through.'

Eluned Morgan AC: I thank you for recognising the significant progress—I think it is significant. It's not over yet, and what's important is that we now go further with the urgent primary care centres, for example. You asked how we're going to place this on a sustainable footing and what differences are going to be made, particularly if people are being sent there from GP surgeries—does that actually help? Well, one of the reasons for that is that often there is kit in the urgent primary care centres that GP surgeries don't have, so they can't diagnose such conditions in the GP surgeries, but they can in the urgent primary care centres. Also, many of these urgent primary care centres are already operating out of hours as compared to GP surgeries, and one of the things that we do want to ensure is that we see 24-hour coverage in terms of urgent primary care centres, and that again alleviates some of the pressure on the emergency departments.
In terms of care, what I'm eager to do is to see whether we can see that shift to the community, to stop people from having to go to hospital in the first instance. We do have some work to do with our population in Wales so that they can understand that hospital isn't always the right place. We all have a job of work to do in that regard, because if your parent is the one who is poorly, then you of course want to do the best for them, and perhaps you consider sometimes the best thing for them is to go to the hospital. Often, they don't want to go to the hospital, but we want to do the best for them. So, I think we all have work to do, because nobody wants to die in hospital. It's very important that we all start to recognise that we will all die at some point, and that we have to educate people how to die well, and that is a very difficult step to take, because very often we don't talk about death as a society in a healthy way. That sounds odd, but I do think we need to be having these conversations, which are sensitive and difficult.
In terms of the statistics, the average response to red calls is eight minutes and 24 seconds. That's the average response time. Now, 80 percent of red calls receive a response within 15 minutes. So, it's really important, I think, because there's a great deal of mention made of an ambulance not attending. If it's a red call, it will attend. Perhaps we don't hit that target, but what I don't want to do is see people being afraid to call for an ambulance, because it will come, but perhaps not often enough at present within the period of time that we've set as a challenge and as a target. But they do attend, and the average response time is eight minutes and 24 seconds.
In terms of those patients who attend emergency departments, the pre-triage period on average is 23 minutes, and the average time before an assessment by an appropriate doctor is undertaken is around about an hour and a half. Those are average times, and it's very important that people understand that. Of course, there are examples of people waiting far longer than that. A great deal of good work has been done in Cardiff in particular, in terms of people waiting. They've kept within the four-hour target that we've set for months now, so we are sending people from the other health boards to look what Cardiff is doing and to learn from them.
The workforce is an issue. You are aware that we are trying to recruit more than ever before, particularly in terms of the ambulance service. We will be recruiting more people to 111 so that more people can use that service. There is a workforce programme that goes hand in hand with this job of work, and that is being developed with Health Education and Improvement Wales.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement today. This focus on ensuring that people who need urgent or unplanned healthcare can access the very best services is one that is really important to my constituents in Cynon Valley, so it's good to see progress on delivering this, and also the renewed commitment to delivering further improvements over the next 12 months.
The positive results you mentioned from the roll-out of the '111 press 2' service that's supporting 80 per cent of users from having to access an alternative urgent or emergency care service is very welcome. In fact, I'm due to visit Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board to learn more about the local roll-out next week, which is something that I'm really looking forward to. What sort of interventions have you put in place to ensure the service remains high quality and is able to meet demand, especially as we know that this is the type of service that people will try to access at moments of crisis?
My second and final question. I was pleased to hear mention of minor injuries units in the context of access to 24/7 urgent care provision, which is a priority for the second year of the plan. I've been in discussion with the health board regarding their plans for the MIU at Ysbyty Cwm Cynon, to expand provision to include minor injuries and illness services outside of the current office-hour arrangement and seven days a week. As you may know, Llais have suggested that YCC is the most central location for such a roll-out. So, what conversations are you having with health boards about expanding this type of provision sustainably, and in particular around ensuring the safe staffing levels, which has been a key factor when services have been limited previously?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Vikki. As I mentioned, I'm hoping that my colleague Lynne Neagle will be able to give a lot more detail on the '111 press 2' service very shortly. I was given a briefing last week on it, and I must say that the results already are incredibly impressive. It's great to hear that. I hope you enjoy your visit, because I think there is some really good and high quality support. It's very clear that the vast majority of people who are phoning that service are getting the support that they need, and not then having to be pushed on to somewhere where they need further support.
On the minor injuries unit, I really think we need to start understanding that this shift into community care is something that we're all going to have to embrace, that the model of care is going to have to change a bit in Wales, because, actually, the profile of our population is changing; we have an older population with more complex and multifaceted issues that we'll need to address. They're not necessarily, again, best helped within a hospital setting. If we're going to make the shift into the community, I think we've got to recognise that there's no more money, so we are going to have to see the shift happening from our secondary care into the community. That's going to be difficult, but I think it's the right direction. Certainly all of the academic reports that I've been reading around this suggest that that is absolutely the direction of travel that we're going to need to take. There will, I'm sure, be a bit of noise around this at some point, but that is certainly something that I'm determined to see. Staffing levels are going to be key, but we are going to have to hopefully see a bit more of that shift in terms of pulling people out of hospitals and into the communities.

Finally, Jane Dodds.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you for the statement, Minister.

Jane Dodds AS: I just want to focus on the sixth of the goals, reducing the risk of readmission after patients are discharged from hospital. These all knit together, don't they, particularly after what you've said to Vikki Howells, and that is around social care. In your statement in July last year, you set out a challenge to health boards and local authorities to create 1,000 social care places to reduce the risk of patients becoming stuck in hospitals. And of course, the co-operation agreement between yourselves and Plaid Cymru has made a commitment to integrate health and social care, but we've heard very little about progress on this commitment. I just wonder if I could ask for an update and when you plan to publish an implementation plan in terms of the progress to integrate health and social care. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Actually, I think what we did over this winter, which was a very intensive discussion with local government—. You know, every two weeks we met and talked about, 'Right, how are we going to deliver these community beds?' We started really early—we started in September. We didn't get to 1,000; we got to 687, which was proportionately lots more than they did in England. While they were talking about it in England in January, we'd already delivered most of ours. And it's not easy to deliver these, because the key thing with this is all about staffing. We'd get to a point where we get a local authority to say, 'Yes, we're up for this', they'd recruit someone and then they'd lose them. So, it's not at all straightforward, and the fragility of our social care system, as you know, is something that concerns, I know, you, and all of us.
There's a huge amount of work being done, obviously with the expert group, which gave their recommendation on social care and the future of that. We do need to see further integration. You'll be aware that there's already £144 million that cannot be spent by health boards or local authorities unless they work together through a particular programme. I can certainly send you more information on that, if it would be useful, but there is a huge amount of work being done on how much further we can go to, certainly looking at the long-term future of social care. It's not going to be easy, because there's not much money in the system at the moment. Obviously, here in Wales, we have introduced the real living wage, but when you see the competition and inflation that occurs, and the fact that so many eastern European people who were working in that sector have gone home, it is undoubtedly a huge challenge.

Thank you, Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language: An Update on Higher Education

Item 6 is next, a statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, an update on higher education. I call on the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. This Government believes that higher education should be available to all, and we are committed to using every lever available to ensure that can happen. We know that living costs can be a real barrier to accessing university. That's why we maintain a link between the level of undergraduate maintenance support and the national living wage, which means Wales has the highest level of maintenance support available in the UK. Despite continuing budget pressures, we've ensured that the value of undergraduate maintenance support is increased significantly by 9.4 per cent in the 2023-24 academic year for new students and those continuing on a course started on or after 1 August 2018. Substantial finance support is also available to part-time and postgraduate learners, an approach that is in fact unique in the United Kingdom. Indeed, these reforms have led to a 14 per cent increase in the number of undergraduates studying part time in the last five years and a 38 per cent increase in postgraduates.
This progressive approach to student finance has meant that Welsh undergraduate students have less to repay, on average, than their English peers, as they receive a guaranteed level of maintenance support, irrespective of their household income. Earlier this year, the UK Government introduced new student finance repayment arrangements. Though Wales's repayment system has historically been aligned to England's, my view is that the new English system is not a good deal for students. England's reforms benefit the highest earners and worsen the position for middle and lower earning graduates. Women are also disproportionately affected. I am clear that we certainly should not be asking teachers, nurses and social workers to pay more, while the highest earners pay less. I am therefore announcing today that we will not move to the system adopted in England, but will retain the current system. This means Welsh graduates will continue to repay loans under the 30-year repayment period rather than England's 40-year repayment period.
I recognise the impact that the cost-of-living crisis can have on students and how worrying about finances can adversely impact mental health and well-being, both of which are crucial for students to get the most out of their time at university. I’m pleased to have been able to provide £2.3 million of additional funding via HEFCW to invest in this support and extend hardship funding to help ease the financial pressures on students. We have done this in partnership with student unions, and it is by working in partnership that we are able to ensure that the maximum impact is felt by students.
I would like to express my support for the NUS 'Turn up' campaign. Voting is a key part of citizenship, it gives power, influence and a stake in society, and encouraging students to vote and make voting a lifetime habit is something, obviously, I endorse. We have increased the franchise here in Wales and encourage people to vote rather than put barriers in their path to the polling booth.
As I said, student mental health is important and that is why we are reviewing our mental health strategy. The Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being is chairing an advisory group for mental health in further education and higher education, bringing together professionals across both tertiary and health sectors. The group will identify and support the implementation of improving access to mental health services by post-16 students and ensure consistency across institutions of accessible resources to support prevention and/or early intervention. The group’s work will help inform the commission’s development of the new registration and funding condition related to learner welfare and well-being.

Jeremy Miles AC: The main focus today has been on students, but, before I close, I would like to turn to our higher education institutions. Let me say at the outset that I understand their financial concerns. Every sector, be it public or private, is feeling the pressure of the high inflation that we are all facing. The Welsh Government settlement is up to £900 million lower in real terms than expected at the time of the 2021 spending review. So, thoughtful consideration is needed to address this issue.
We all know that this is not something that the Welsh Government can do on its own. Welsh institutions operate within a wider UK system, which is under pressure in all parts of the United Kingdom. I have met with all vice-chancellors to discuss with them how we can tackle these issues on a joint basis.
I would like to close by thanking our universities for their commitment to the humanitarian response to the invasion of Ukraine. I thank them for being universities of sanctuary within our nation of sanctuary. All universities continue to work with CARA, the Council for At-Risk Academics, supporting academics seeking refuge from conflict in Ukraine, Afghanistan and beyond. They have also sponsored a number of students, covering tuition fees and accommodation costs, thereby enabling them to continue their education.
Our universities are continuing to support the Ukraine crisis by becoming welcome centres for new arrivals and providing accommodation to meet the increasing demand across Wales. This is higher education that is in Wales, for Wales, and indeed for the world. It's higher education that is available to all and supports them during their studies, creating healthy and educated citizens that will contribute to the future of Wales and beyond. Thank you very much.

Tom Giffard AS: Thank you very much, Minister, for your statement today.

Tom Giffard AS: Can I welcome the majority of the sentiments expressed in your statement today, although I'll come back later to some areas where perhaps we feel you could have gone further? But can I start by associating myself and my group with your sentiments regarding supporting academics from Ukraine, Afghanistan and elsewhere who have faced persecution, and for whom we must do everything we can to help?
First of all, can I just start by saying that anything that helps students from all backgrounds to take part in university and build themselves a better future with higher incomes as a consequence is to be welcomed? As a result, we want to see more and more students in Wales paying back those loans in full, because that's a clearer sign of a vibrant high-wage economy, which we in the Welsh Conservatives aspire to see in Wales. We know that average wages in Wales lag significantly behind the rest of the United Kingdom, and that creates a problem, not only for our economy, but our society too. After 25 years of devolution here in Wales, it's worth remembering that Scottish and Welsh workers were earning roughly the same back then, but a Welsh worker today earns an average of £3,000 less than a Scottish one. So, how are you working with the economy Minister to reverse this Government's record and deliver wages in Wales that are more akin to other parts of the United Kingdom?
As I said, I do think this statement lacked some ambition today when it comes to higher education, and given that lots of the powers here are devolved, it's a great shame that the Welsh Government hasn't gone further. Fortunately, we have some suggestions to reverse what is an unfortunate brain drain that we've seen in Wales and deliver the skills needed for our economy and public services. For instance, you could have announced some of our plans to refund tuition fees for those who choose to work for at least five years as doctors, nurses or teachers in Wales after their studies have concluded. You could also have adopted our plans to cut tuition fees in half for Welsh students studying STEMand modern foreign language subjects at Welsh universities. So, where is the overall vision for higher education in Wales? And what's your plan to incentivise high-skilled STEMcourses and encourage more people not just to study in Wales, but to remain in Wales after they graduate?
You also touched on the support for students with their mental health in your statement, and I think that's important. And with the pressures being put on students today being more acute than ever, particularly post pandemic, that is really important. And whilst I'm pleased to hear you mention that the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being is chairing an advisory group on mental health in FE and HE, the reality is that it's action that matters. So, when can we hear the outcomes and the progress of the advisory group you mentioned, so that we can make a discernable difference to helping support the mental health of students in Wales? And staying with mental health, one of the things I think is often overlooked, certainly from my own perspective and that of friends who graduated at a similar time to me, is the transition out of university and into the world of work at the conclusion of a degree. Many just aren't prepared, for example, for how different the world of work can be compared to the world of education, particularly higher education, once they choose to end their studies. And the pressure perhaps of not being able to find the job that you imagined, for example, can cause a significant strain on an individual's mental health. So, Minister, would you commit to asking the Deputy Minister to include those individuals in the years after leaving FE and HE in the considerations of her advisory group on mental health so that you don't create that cliff edge for where mental health support exists?
And, finally, at the end of your statement, you alluded to the long-term health of university funding in Wales. And, on the topic of funding, it would be remiss of me not to mention my most recent short debate that concerned access to research funding for Welsh universities, which remains significantly behind that of other parts of the UK. As I said then, and according to the Office for National Statistics, out of the three devolved nations of the UK and each of the nine regions of England, Wales has proportionately the lowest expenditure on research and development, with the lowest performing of the 12 UK nations and regions. Despite Wales making up 5 per cent of the population, we account for just 2 per cent of the R&D spend in the UK and only 3 per cent of competitive funding. Indeed, the Wales Innovation Network has been described by Richard Wyn Jones, director of the Wales Governance Centre and the dean of public affairs at Cardiff University, as extremely modest. So, you mentioned that funding—that long-term security funding—obviously, an increase in the availability of our universities to go for research funding is integral to that. So, what are you doing to make sure that universities in Wales can access the funding necessary for research so that our universities have full access to the funding they need and they can stop punching below their weight?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for those questions. In relation to the point on mental health, he asked when there would be a progress report on the work of the advisory group, and the point at which that will happen is when the work of the advisory group is complete. I agree with him: it's important, isn't it, that we avoid artificial cliff edges between the support available to students, young people, at any point in their careers. He will recognise that that is partly behind the whole-system approach to mental health and well-being, which the Welsh Government advocates and on which I am working closely with, as he is aware, the Deputy Minister. So, this is not compartmentalised in the way that I think his question assumes; it's a much more holistic approach to that, which I'm sure he would agree is the only real way of being able to provide the level of support that individuals need, and rightly would expect.
In relation to the other two points on research, I commend him for his boldness in going on the attack in relation to a research landscape in Wales that is entirely the product of the betrayal by Conservatives of people in Wales during the Brexit campaign. Promises were made in relation to structural funds in Wales, which, as he will know, are a principal source of funding for research in Welsh institutions, and they have simply been broken. So, perhaps he might reflect on what more he can do with the Government that he supports in Westminster. I know he will feel strongly that his colleagues in Westminster are doing the right thing, so perhaps he can answer for those actions when he next reflects on the position in which universities find themselves in relation to research. We as a Government consistently take every opportunity to encourage the Conservative Government to relent and to keep its promises so that the situation that he describes isn't worsened, and, indeed, so that we can see the funding available to universities that we were told we could expect.
In relation to the policies that he is suggesting we might consider as alternatives, I'm afraid we just need to look at what Conservative Governments do in practice if we want to see what, in reality, student finance looks like from a Conservative perspective. We see increases in next year's funding of 2.8 per cent by a Conservative Government, 9.4 per cent by a Welsh Labour Government. We see a Conservative Government seeking to make it easier for those who are higher paid to pay off their student loans, and harder for those on middle and lower incomes to do so. We see a Conservative Government starting the repayment period for student loans at a lower threshold than a Labour Government. We see an absence of any commitment to student grants as we have here in Wales, and no commitment to write off, as we have in Wales, where the first £1,500 of debt is written off. So, there is no world in which a Conservative solution to student finance is more progressive. Every single piece of evidence that we have, I'm afraid, tells you that a Conservative Government in practice seeks a regressive policy in this area. The Welsh Labour Government—I'm very content to stand by our actions—has always been committed to the most progressive available student finance regime, as today's announcement evidences.

Sioned Williams MS: I'd like to declare an interest in that my husband is employed by Swansea University and is a member of UCU. I thank the Minister for his statement and I welcome the recognition that more needs to be done to support students as they face huge challenges during the cost-of-living crisis, and also in terms of the support required in terms of their mental health.
Turning to that first, I was part of the Senedd's Children, Young People and Education Committee's inquiry into the effectiveness of mental health support in Welsh higher education, and the evidence we heard from the students themselves showed clearly that there needs to be more co-operation between higher education providers and statutory services in Wales to ensure a consistent level of support. Although all Welsh universities have joined the StepChange and Suicide-Safer Universities by Universities UK frameworks, and every Welsh HE provider has to have a students' charter, we heard of heartbreaking and very concerning cases that mean that our young people cannot benefit fully from education opportunities, and some of them are at risk. Just yesterday, we heard about the sad case of a student at Aberystwyth University, Charlie McLeod, who died by suicide in February. So, I would like to know if the Government would accept the recommendations of the report—there were 33 in total—as we as a committee are convinced they would help to ensure that nobody loses the opportunity to realise their potential at university because of mental health issues.
I'd also like to highlight the issue of international students, who face different pressures—this was something that we saw clearly in that inquiry—and the needs of care-experienced students, or those who already had mental health problems before starting on their HE journey. So, will the group chaired by the Deputy Minister look at those specific groups of students? Can you tell us whether students themselves will have a voice in this group?
Of course, in that report, it was mentioned that you couldn't pour from an empty cup, namely that staff in the HE sector who are under immense pressure themselves and are in dispute with their employer for fair pay and conditions, aren't best placed always to provide the support needed by their students because of the pressures already on them. UCUCymru has described the intention of HE institutions in Wales to cut the salaries of staff who are participating in the assessment and marking boycott, which is an entirely legal boycott, punitive, aggressive and disproportionate. Do you agree that the attitude of universities threatens to intensify the dispute, and is unjust, and if you do, would you encourage vice-chancellors in Wales to rethink, and for the Universities and Colleges Employers Association to return to the negotiating table?
In terms of Ukraine, I'd also like to thank our universities for their response and the welcome that's been extended to students and academics who've come to Wales to continue with their studies. You'll recall that I've raised with you in the past the case of Lisa Veta, a student from Dnipro who came to Swansea University to study the work of Dylan Thomas. Her visa expires on 9 May and, although she has applied for an extension, she has heard nothing from UK Visas and Immigration. Is the support extended to Ukrainian students by our universities being monitored by the Government at all, and is there anything that you as a Government can do to try and save Lisa, and others like her, from suffering more anxiety and uncertainty about their future as they try and continue with their studies, having been here for a time?
In terms of student finance, I welcome that the Government here in Wales is following a different course to that adopted by the Westminster Government, given that impact on different groups of students, and will encourage people to undertake the kinds of jobs that we desperately need: teachers, nurses, social workers, and, indeed, lecturers and researchers. But, Minister, would raising the threshold for repayments be more beneficial in the current climate?
And I would also ask whether the Welsh Government supports the u-turn of the UK Labour leader, Keir Starmer, which was revealed recently, that the UK Government in Westminster would not support student demands to reduce or abolish tuition fees entirely, something that he himself has said in the past places an unacceptable burden on young people, describing the debt as a national scandal. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Sioned Williams for that range of questions. May I echo and acknowledge what she has said with regard to the student in Aberystwyth University? They are very sad circumstances. The work that suicide-safer and StepChange is doing is very important work, and that reminds us of how important that work is. We are, of course, working, and we have been working, with organisations to support them in the work that they do on mental health and well-being, which includes financial support via HEFCW, as I mentioned in the statement.
In terms of the recommendations, we will be responding officially to those, but I and the Deputy Minister had an opportunity to give evidence to the committee, and we have been following the discussions with a great deal of interest, and, certainly, the evidence that you have heard as a committee is very important evidence that we would want to take into full consideration. The impression that I had from the discussion that we had in committee was that a number of the priorities that we have are shared priorities, so I look forward to responding more fully to the recommendations.
In terms of the specific questions regarding the advisory group, the student voice will be part of that, and we have an understanding that the situation of international students is a specific and separate issue, and it's clear that universities understand that international students perhaps find it harder to take up the support that is available, because of concerns about visas, as she mentioned with regard to the experience of a particular student. So, institutions and organisations have a specific focus on that response. We are working with the universities to monitor what they are doing as institutions to support students and academics from Ukraine, as she asked in her question.
And finally, in terms of where we are with support for students, we are very proud as a Government that the principle that is driving what we are trying to do is to ensure that every student from Wales receives an element of a grant. Many receive the majority of their financial support at university via the grant, and that is something that we are very proud of. I heard Keir Starmer saying that he feels that the current system isn't a fair system. I would agree with him on that. We have an example of how we can, even within the system that we have, work to get the most progressive results, and the statement that I have made today is an example of that.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Many have pointed out the unsustainable nature of the income and expenditure of Welsh universities. Indeed, two higher education institutions based here in Cardiff are in deficit—Cardiff University and Cardiff Metropolitan University. Does the Minister agree that the steeply declining real value of tuition fees has placed Welsh universities in a perilous financial position, and, if so, what is he planning to do about it?
Some universities have managed to attract a number of international students to boost their incomes. PrifysgolionCymru-Universities Wales research revealed that one job was generated for every two international students at Welsh universities. Would the Minister agree with me that we as a nation have an obligation to give international students the welcome and the environment they deserve when they come to study here in Wales? Some of my constituents here in Cardiff who are members of the African Students Society have written to me, concerned about the poor housing conditions that they endure while studying here. Some landlords ask for a year's rent upfront. As the students cannot provide a UK citizen to act as a guarantor, a year's rent upfront is impossible for the vast majority of international students and, therefore, that means that they and their families, quite often, are living in temporary accommodation, such as Airbnbs and other hotels.
I'm sure you can agree with me, Minister, that this is no way to treat any student, let alone international students, who contribute so much to the viability of our universities, but who are also potential ambassadors for Wales and for Welsh croesoacross the world. What encouragement can you give, Minister, to universities for them then to act as guarantors for international students? Diolch yn fawr.

Jeremy Miles AC: Both of those questions are very important and I can hopefully offer the Member some reassurance that they were both the subject of a recent discussion that I had, also dealing with other topics, with vice-chancellors. The implication in his question, I think, is that there would be some merit in not limiting tuition fees to where they are. I'm afraid I don't share that view, if that was the implication he was making. But I do recognise, as I indicated in my statement, that there are very real financial pressures that institutions in Wales face, and I'm engaged in an active discussion with vice-chancellors and others in relation to how best to address some of those pressures. There are no straightforward answers, as I know that he will appreciate, in relation to that.
And the second point that he made is also something that we have discussed. I agree with him that, consistent with our values in so many other areas, it's very important for us in Wales to be able to provide that welcome to students from overseas when they come here to study. That is something that we want to see people do—it helps us to create a network of relationships around the world of which we are very, very proud, and they make a significant contribution to the life of Walesin choosing to come here to study.
I recognise the point that I think he was making in relation to some institutions in particular—that the experience of some students have been certainly very, very concerning and absolutely unsatisfactory. And I have had a very good discussion with vice-chancellors in relation to this to ensure that students who come to Wales to study understand the context in which they are doing so and understand the support available to them when they come here to live—and they may have family who may wish to come here to work—so that they have a very clear understanding of that before they make the choice to come to study here. But they should know that they have a Government that is, as with other people who choose to come and live in Wales for however long, always happy to extend a hand of welcome to them.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I thank the Minister. No—we have one further speaker. James Evans.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, it's very positive to see—[Inaudible.]—the advisory group, but one thing I'd like to know from you—. Obviously, there will be recommendations that come out of that and that will obviously come with resource implications, so I'd just like to know what sort of budgeting analysis you've done within your department to make sure there are enough resources available to actually fund some of the interventions that that advisory group will come forward with.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, we don't know what they are yet, so it's impossible to quantify at this stage what resources will be required in order to address them, but you will have my assurance that both the Deputy Minister and I will look very constructively at recommendations that the group make, and those that we feel able to support, obviously, we will also resource.

I thank the Minister for that statement.

7. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services: Neurodivergence Improvement Programme

The next statement and the final one this afternoon is the statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services on the neurodivergence improvement programme update. The Deputy Minister to make that statement—Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you very much for the opportunity to update Members on the progress we're making on delivering on our programme for government commitment to improve services and support for neurodivergent people.
We delivered the statutory code of practice on the delivery of autism services in September 2021, and we are now going much further to ensure that the infrastructure to deliver real improvements in neurodivergence services support is put in place.
Demand for assessment and support has risen very sharply in recent years as the general awareness of neurodivergent conditions has increased, leading to lengthening waiting times for assessment. We have undertaken a demand and capacity review of existing services and, in response, I have provided an additional £12 million of investment over three years to reduce the immense pressures in the system, to improve waiting times for assessment and to address gaps in current provision in both children and adult services. To fully understand the current challenges in the system, the NHS delivery unit is working closely with services to identify what more we can do to improve services quickly and to reduce waiting times.
I want to emphasise that the programme is, very importantly, being genuinely co-produced. We are working in partnership with people who have lived experience of neurodivergence and their families, and with practitioners who are delivering services and providing much needed and valued support. We also fund the national autism team, which is expanding its role to work across neurodivergent conditions. We're supporting new roles in the team to facilitate this transformation and to bring additional expertise to develop services for children and young people. In addition, the neurodivergence ministerial advisory group is also guiding our work. It is co-chaired by three neurodivergent individuals, and we have representation from across our communities to make sure everyone's voice is heard. We're making sure that all of the development work we are now undertaking in work streams, stakeholder groups and clinical groups is influenced and shaped by people with lived experience and their families.
In November 2022, we undertook intensive stakeholder engagement across Wales to consult on our proposals for the neurodivergence improvement programme, and I am pleased to say that we received broad support for our plans, which acknowledged the complex issues that children, young people, adults and their families are experiencing.
I'm taking a very active interest in ensuring that we are delivering the support neurodivergent people tell me they need. I have met with many families and heard about the struggles they experience in accessing help and support for autism, ADHD and Tourette's. That is why it was so important for me, in March, to meet with the Children's Commissioner for Wales to provide reassurances around the findings and recommendations of their recent report, 'A No Wrong Door Approach to Neurodiversity: a book of experiences', which clearly sets out the difficulties families are facing every day.
Many families have expressed to me a need to be able to share their anxieties and that having someone who is able to listen to them without judgment would make a difference to their lives and well-being. I am pleased to say that we have been listening and we are taking action. I am delighted to announce that, from April, we have been piloting an expansion to our C.A.L.L. community advice listening line, a mental health helpline for Wales to provide a 24-hour, confidential listening service to supportneurodivergent people and their families. The already skilled and experienced staff have received additional training on neurodivergence from the national autism team. We will review the service, and I do hope that it'll become a successful and much used and valuable service.
Families have also told us that there needs to be more training and development for staff, and that many individuals can have other co-existing conditions that need tailored support. Again, we are taking action to improve workforce skills, and, on 18 May, we've organised a national event to bring practitioners together to share good practice and to work collaboratively on service improvement. This will form the basis for an ongoing national children’s neurodivergence network and community of practice.
We're also working closely with Health Education Improvement Wales and Social Care Wales to develop pre- and post-qualification training for the workforce, whilst also widening our workforce ability to diagnose.
We've also made great strides in addressing many gaps in autism services in particular, which we must now build on to develop our vision for sustainable neurodivergence services. Since 2016, we've supported the successful implementation of the integrated autism service, and the vital learning from this has helped to shape this new programme, with a focus on several key features that form the basis for change. These include developing robust outcome measures, taking an integrated approach to service delivery, peer-led support, and scaling up best practice to create a robust national model for future services—a model that is intended to not only tackle diagnostic waiting times, but also will fill the identified gaps in support for other neurodivergent conditions, such as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and Tourette's. Indeed, it'll go even further than this as our expertise develops.
And although we recognise that many people will want a medical assessment, we want the early help and support to be available that isn’t solely reliant on receiving a diagnosis. There should be support whilst waiting for an assessment, and afterwards, irrespective of whether a diagnosis of autism, ADHD or other neurodivergent conditions is made. The focus on early help is essential, and recently I had the pleasure of visiting A.S.D. Rainbows, a charitable service for autistic children, and I was pleased to hear how they deliver early intervention therapies, and the difference this service makes to families. I look forward to the development of other innovative services through the neurodivergence improvement programme as it progresses.
Families also tell us that schools are vital in identifying issues early, and in providing early help and support. So, we're taking a whole-systems approach with cross-Government working. We're also engaging with services to ensure they are joined up, particularly in relation to referral for assessments and the provision of support in schools and additional learning needs provision. And I very recently met with Lucy Marie Phillips, a young person who has written a book about how Tourette's syndrome is affecting her life, which was a very striking book, which shows the real problems that young people have in struggling with a condition such as Tourette's. And the more we can raise awareness of the impact of neurodivergence, the better it'll be to help everyone’s understanding and reduce barriers that people might otherwise face.
So, today, I've described our approach and just some of the actions we're taking to deliver meaningful improvements to the lives of neurodivergent people and their families, and the improvements we all want to see for our local communities. Thank you.

James Evans MS: In the interests of openness, I'll just declare an interest, as a member of my family is waiting for an autism diagnosis. Deputy Minister, I'd like to thank you for your statement today, and I welcome any Government efforts to increase support and resources to help deliver improvements to neurodivergent services in Wales. However, the Welsh Government has been talking about this for some years now, and, whilst I acknowledge that there has been a massive increase in demand in services, they are still falling further and further behind. There are over 9,000 children waiting for an autism and ADHD assessment, a third of which have been on the waiting list for over a year just to receive the diagnosis. During this wait, and because of a lack of diagnosis, these children are not receiving the support and help that they so desperately need. Many are dropping out of mainstream education as a result. I was talking to a constituent not so long ago whose daughter, at the age of 14, dropped out of school and never received any contact from the school or any support services and has yet to receive, actually, their diagnosis.
So, Deputy Minister, I'd like to know what you're doing to reduce the waiting list times, and do you think that the £4 million here of the £12 million extra you provided will be sufficient to address these problems? And I'd like to know what work you're doing with the education Minister to make sure that, if people are dropping out of school, they can get back into mainstream education or appropriate education as soon as possible so young people are not missing out on any of their education.
Diagnosis is important to many, but it's not the magic key to unlock all of the services. After a considerable wait for diagnosis, many constituents and people across Wales tell me there is a further battle to access services and support. There is no surprise there when the report identifies failings in many areas, from staffing structures to clinical spaces, so can you inform the Senedd and myself today how you intend to increase expertise in this area to sort out the recruitment challenges that you have? One in 20 people are thought to have ADHD, and one in 100 children are thought to have Tourette's. It should not have taken this long for it to be realised, and the neurodivergent strategy needs to be expanded to include other areas as well, and conditions—it's not just about autism. You outlined in your speech that you're looking to expand the strategy, but I'd like to know how and when you're going to do this.
I urge you to take on board the report's recommendations and any developments must focus on being a person-centred approach, and you did raise that through your speech, so I recognise that. But many individuals do not fit into existing services or labels, and a holistic, all-round approach is a must. And I do commend the Government for taking that measure.
The review identifies that there have been further failures to identify and effectively engage with some groups, such as autistic girls, and that constituent who I told you about that went to get support and they were actually told, 'Because you're a girl you don't have autism.' They were told that by a professional person. I'm afraid that's not right and there needs to be bit of education done around that. I see the Minister for Health and Social Services shaking her head. I'm quite happy to share that case with you. I'm sure that constituent would be as well.
So, Minister, on autism specifically, do you now think it's time and right that the Welsh Government bring forward an autism Act, the same sort of Bill that my friend and colleague Paul Davies from Preseli Pembroke championed for in this place, to make sure that we can actually get some of the support available for these people as soon as possible? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much for that contribution, and thank you very much for your general support for the proposals I've put forward today. I think it is a complex situation and we are starting off on this improvement programme, which I believe will deliver concrete results. You asked about what are we doing specifically to reduce neurodevelopment waiting times for assessment for children. So, we're working with the NHS delivery unit, which is undertaking a mapping exercise to try to better understand the complexities of the assessment process for children and young people, because we do have figures from all the different health boards, but they vary enormously. For example, some show no delays virtually, and others show hundreds of delays. And so it's very difficult to get a clear picture from that. So, we want to clearly address the barriers and focus on getting urgent support in to families, but I think it's really important we get the data right. So, the NHS delivery unit is going to look at that.
And then, as I said, we have got an extra £12 million that we're putting in over the three-year period, and I allocated an initial £1.4 million to regional partnership boards to support urgent need and to encourage innovation, and we are evaluating the results of that work. We've set up a clinical advisory group to provide expert advice on the development of services and to look at the waiting lists. And we're also developing a children's neurodevelopmental practitioners' network. Waiting times are not where we want them to be, I absolutely acknowledge that, and they vary so much that we really think we've got to have a good look at them and see where they are, as our first step towards tackling the waiting times, to get the actual evidence.
Some of the other questions that you raised—I think you said that everything has been concentrated on autism, and that we should develop that to make sure we have the whole spectrum, and we intend to move towards that. We've started with ADHD and Tourette's, and I've had quite a considerable number of meetings with families involved with those conditions, and there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that we need to develop a neurodiverse service that is beyond autism and covers all the conditions. So, that's definitely where we will move.
Then the issue about girls—yes, I think this is a really important issue, because there's no doubt that girls have not been diagnosed with autism because their symptoms have been masked. And I think that's happened because girls, maybe more than boys, have, in school, for example, been in friendship groups where they've copied the behaviour of other girls, so it hasn't been recognised. But now I think we're actually on to that, and in the integrated autism service we are now having more girls referred than—well, it's more women than men, basically, because that's mainly for adults. So, I think we have grasped that, and the clinicians are very aware of that.
And then, on the autism Act, I think we need to press ahead with what we're actually doing now, and I don't think there's any point, really, in revisiting that issue. Under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, I think we have the duties that we need in order to tackle all these complex issues. And I think that we absolutely—. Just to cover one of the points you were making about education, it's absolutely essential that we work very closely with education, because that's where these conditions are often first spotted, and we need to get in there very quickly and do what we can.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you to the Deputy Minister for this statement—several useful updates here, and I welcome several elements; I welcome, certainly, the intention to extend the helpline for mental health. I would welcome, from the Deputy Minister, more details about how that pilot project is going to be rolled out to be a wider programme. I also welcome the commitment to provide more training opportunities for people working in this field. Again, I would welcome more detail, specifically how many individuals you foresee will be able to go through these training schemes and over what kind of period. And also, of course, we need to attract more people into this field, so I would ask what the Government is doing to ensure that careers in the neurodivergent conditions field are sufficiently attractive and that sufficient numbers of young people come into the sector who want to work in this area, as well as that we improve the skills of those who are already working in the field.
And one final question, a fundamental question. We hear once again in this statement that demand for services has increased a great deal and that the major problem is that demand is greater than the provision that's available. Well, can I ask, therefore, when does the Deputy Minister expect that we will have the capacity to provide for those people who are seeking services, whether that be assessment, in the first instance, or support and treatment in due course? I would appreciate an ambitious timeline from the Deputy Minister that would tell us when we think that we will be able to be in a sustainable situation, because it's perfectly clear that the situation isn't currently sustainable.

Julie Morgan AC: I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for his contribution and for his welcome for some of the elements in my statement. The call roll-out is very early; it only started at the beginning of April, so it will be evaluated, so I hope we'll have a lot more information that we can give you soon. But we actually did this in direct response to what families said, because I met a lot of groups of families, which were very distressing meetings, because they'd had a terrible struggle to get recognition and help for the condition that they were in. And this is one of the things they wanted. So, we have set this up. It's 24 hours, it's confidential, the people who have been working on the mental health line have had specific training in neurodivergent conditions and are very eager to do what they can for people who do phone up. I think we had some figures—I think, over the first week or so, about 40 families had contacted the line, particularly on neurodivergence. So, I think that was a good start, but, obviously, we've got to make sure that the line is well known, and we will evaluate it before—we hope—it will become a permanent feature, which will be available to everybody.
Yes, we do need to upskill the workforce, and we do need to give as many training opportunities as we possibly can. So, a variety of bespoke training will be developed for specific professional groups, such as people working in CAMHS, social workers. And all of the resources that are used are co-produced with individuals with a range of neurodivergent conditions. And that is one of the key things that we're trying to embed in our practice now, is to work jointly, in a co-productive way, with people with actual lived experience. So, the national autism team have rolled out two e-learning modules, around understanding autism and understanding effective communication. Local authorities have received those well, and most areas have made arrangements to access this training. Tourettes Action have also got an e-learning module that is readily available. And we're working closely with Health Education and Improvement Wales and Social Care Wales, and we hope to develop pre- and post-qualification training for the workforce. Schools and further education can access the learning with autism training packages, through the national autism team. So, we are trying, as widely as possible, to roll out training programmes.
I think it's an important point he makes about how we're going to attract people into the service, and that's something that we hope, when people who are involved in this sort of work realise the investment we're putting into the service and the need that is there, that they will be attracted to do that. But, obviously, that's something we need to work on as we go along. I don't think it's possible to say when we would ever say, 'Right, we've got everything we need, and we've reached the situation where we've solved it', because we're still at the stage, really, where, as I say, we've got the NHS delivery unit looking in to see exactly what the figures are and where it exists. There is so much more awareness of what's happening, which I think is great, but it obviously brings more demand. So, I don't think I could ever say when we'd reached a stage that we'd say, 'Yes, we've managed to solve it all.'

Hefin David AC: As James Evans did, I'll declare an interest here, as my daughter is autistic, and she's currently in receipt of public care—she's in a resource base. I've lived the challenges that the Deputy Minister's mentioned today, and I feel that a lot of what's been said today is a response to some of the things I raised in my short debate a year ago—a year ago this month. And I feel that the Deputy Minister's listened intently to what I said, given that the progress that we've made in that year has followed the path of the statement she's made, and I very much welcome that. I'd just say to James Evans: I don't think that a law is going to help us; I think the progress that's being made here and is being demonstrated will help more. And as to whether we'll resolve this, I think clinicians are learning all the time about neurodiversity, and therefore it's impossible to identify an end point, because we are learning all the time.
One thing I'd say to the Deputy Minister that could be enhanced, and some questions I'd have is: there is more to neurodiversity than autism; there is also dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, and those additional things that happen in school. And I feel that there's something's missing; there is a paragraph in there about schools, but I think that the connection with education is missing. And if it is to be a true whole-system approach, I think education needs to be brought in, alongside health and social care, on a more rigorous basis. And also, if you take that a step further, I wonder why you can't have mandatory training for schools in dealing with neurodivergent conditions. I think that would be a further step forward. And I'd like to learn in future more about how the Deputy Minister will see that better connection with education, to further enhance the progress that she's clearly making in this area.

Julie Morgan AC: I'd like to thank Hefin very much for his contribution and for all the work he's done in this field, because I think he has been a champion here, speaking up. And I absolutely recognise the debate you made early on and some of the changes that have come about since then. Because I’m not trying to hide the fact—we are making progress, but it needs a lot of time and effort in order to achieve that progress. And certainly dyslexia, dyspraxia, all the other conditions, we do intend to provide a service that will cover all those conditions. Obviously, we started off with autism and all the concentration on autism. We’ve got Tourette’s and ADHD now where we’re putting some emphasis on, and that’s because of the demand that has come to us, basically. But we do want to look at all those other conditions as well, and we will be a team. It won’t be the national autism team; it will become a team that will cover all those conditions, and we will have to learn from the statutory code for autism. We’ll need some other codes, or we’ll need to convert that to a code that will cover all the conditions. So, thank you very much for making that important point.
And, yes, this link with education is absolutely crucial. We’re doing our utmost to improve the links between health and education, and we’re aware of the barriers and the processes that do overcomplicate referral pathways. What we would do by setting up the practitioners network that we’ll be setting up is we want to show the best practice models that do already exist in some areas and in some schools, in particular in Newport and in west Wales, where there are early help referral pathways between education, health, social care and families that are extremely effective, because they draw in all elements. I know that, in some schools, at the earliest point of identification the school is involved and works with the children and young people with individual development plans and carries on working with them, and if the need then becomes for health to be involved, education is involved and works with health. There are very good examples, but they’re scattered examples, and what we want to do is to try and improve the whole system.

Mark Isherwood AC: I also sought to introduce an autism Bill before Paul Davies, and I have to disagree, based on my daily casework, with the Minister when she said there’s no point in revisiting this issue, because I assure you that where good practice exists it’s laudable, and it’s good for the people who live in those areas, but bad practice is being allowed to continue to exist because we still don’t have the legal duties that would have been introduced by my Act and then Paul’s Act. I should also declare I have members of my family who have neurodiverse conditions.
Neurodevelopmental conditions are covered by the Equality Act 2010, requiring understanding of and adjustments for people known or believed to have lifelong neurodevelopmental conditions, including ADHD and autism spectrum conditions. However, although you state that
'We are working in partnership with people who have lived experience of neurodivergence and their families,'
and that
'The focus on early help is essential',
I hear almost daily from neurodiverse people, their families and carers, who are still having to fight for the support and services they need to enable them to lead independent lives, only to be blamed by senior officials who refuse to understand either their neurodiversity or their legal duties under the Equality Act, the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, and of course the statutory code you referred to.
How do you therefore respond to—? I’ll just give one example, an example of a Flintshire constituent with diagnosed conditions, including autism and ADHD, who e-mailed me within the last fortnight, speaking on behalf of both herself and the ever growing number of other Flintshire families in a similar position, who are having to support each other, and she e-mailed as follows:
'We’re concerned about the number of children being removed instead of preventative services being put in place for those families who need support. I’m sure I’ll have a target on my back now, so I may as well make it worth it, given their gaslighting, discrimination, unlawful and corrupt behaviours. We’re tired of the bullying and failures whilst they pretend to be autism friendly under the guise of the north Wales integrated autism service. They’re a danger to society and have traumatised many, but what makes it worse is they show no remorse, no compassion and no sign of changing.'
How will you listen to these people whose lived experience is horrifying to listen to on a daily basis, and of course deeply, not just traumatising, but agonising for them, and in some cases leading to outcomes that are shocking and in some cases unbelievable for those families?

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Mark, for that series of questions. Again, I know you have been a champion for autism in particular in this Chamber. As I have said throughout this statement, I am not in any way denying the difficult experiences that people are having and have had. I think that what you described in terms of your constituents about discrimination and bullying and about children being removed, I think that is shocking and I think I would need to see more details of what happened there in order to tackle those issues, because I certainly do not think that anything like that should be happening in the services that we provide.
In terms of people supporting each other, I think that is a very effective way of managing to carry on, basically, and we are working closely with the voluntary sector, which is particularly involved with neurodivergent conditions, and they advise us, they're on our advisory board, and we think that support groups are things that we really want to encourage, and it means so much. In the groups that I've held, I think it has been absolutely great to see how the—mainly—parents in the groups have supported each other in describing the activities that they've been through, and I think the more we can do to help that, we will.
In terms of working in partnership, we are committed to working in partnership, in co-production, and I acknowledge that that is something that's not easy to do, because obviously to work in true co-production you have to produce things together and it takes much longer in order to truly co-produce. We are, as I think I said in the speech, involved with many people who have either neurodiversity itself or have people in the family who are affected, and we do have a number of those people on our advisory group. We've got a wider stakeholder group and we are listening to their voices and they are part of what we're doing. So, I'd like to reassure him that we are doing everything we can to work together in partnership with people who have got that lived experience, in order to inform the progress that we are planning to make.

I thank the Minister for that statement. That brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you all very much.

The meeting ended at 17:43.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Huw Irranca-Davies: What lessons for the economy of Wales did the First Minister learn from his recent visit to the Basque Country?

Mark Drakeford: My recent visit to the Basque Country was an opportunity to share learning on a variety of topics, including economic development, education and language policy. There is much to learn, for example, from the Basque model of innovation-driven social and economic development.

Vikki Howells: Will the Welsh Government provide an update on work to protect children and young people from smoking-related harm?

Mark Drakeford: Supporting children and young people to have a smoke-free childhood is a key part of our tobacco control strategy, 'A smoke-free Wales'. We have banned smoking in settings where children spend their time, including school grounds and public playgrounds, and our JustBSmokefree programme works in schools to prevent smoking uptake.

Carolyn Thomas: What is the Welsh Government doing to support parents and carers in North Wales with the cost of the school day?

Mark Drakeford: Our school essentials grant has made a big difference to many lower income families across Wales, helping to reduce the worry surrounding the purchase of school uniform and equipment. Funding of £13.6 million has been made available for this grant in 2023-24.